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Most French people think Islam is incompatible with nation's values: PM

And ? Who's Mandela ? God ?

A man who spent decades in prison fighting apartheid ! A man awarded a Nobel prize in recognition for his work.. The president of UN. Etc

The FLN was known to commit atrocities against the local populations like to the european populations. It's good to say the french are bad,but the other side wasn't any better.

Nonsense .. FLN why never commit any "attrocities" against their own people while fighting for their freedom against the French who were on killing and rapine rampage.
 
Bhai kyun lay raha hai salay romani bandar ki.



After how many centuries ? And that too
After the downfall of the empire. Don't make me laugh.


Downfall? The Ottoman sultan was the Caliph....he had the Ummah behind him.Plus,what's the glory in defeating tiny Balkan states ? Never did the Romanians enjoyed superiority in numbers aginst the Ottomans,on the contrary.... Once entering Central Europe,the *** kicking began.Still,it was the same Europeans who protected Constantinople from falling.

In the end....the end result matters.By the way.read about the 2nd Balkan War,the Romanians saved Turkey from loosing all its Balkan possesions ;)

Nonsense .. FLN why never commit any "attrocities" against their own people while fighting for their freedom against the French who were on killing and rapine rampage.


Actually they did,no different from many organisations today.That's why many Algerians fought for the French.So,they ended up terrorising Algerians,like all terrorists.
 
A man who spent decades in prison fighting apartheid ! A man awarded a Nobel prize in recognition for his work.. The president of UN. Etc



Nonsense .. FLN why never commit any "attrocities" against their own people while fighting for their freedom against the French who were on killing and rapine rampage.


[EN] FLN rebels massacred all 303 muslim inhabitants of Mechta-Kasbah, Melouza village in the French departement of Constantine, Algeria.
The Melouza village supported the FLN rival independentist group called MNA so the FLN slaughtered all male adults and teens. Then the FLN published a pamphlet claiming the massacre was perpetred by the French Army instead.


 
I do not think that a Muslim living in a secular country is incompatible.
Practicing true Islamic values in your personal life is not something which should lead towards a person having a mutually antagonistic relationship with a truly secular society which does not allow religious bias to marginalize anyone.
There is something wrong, either with that person's interpretation of Islam or the society's claim to be secular if this is the case!

In this case headscarves are being considered a threat which is not something logical and in my opinion highly objectionable even from a secular point of view!
To be fair, the headscarf does not hide the face so it has no security implications as well.
If someone covers their face (not mandated by Islam) then they can be asked to remove it or even face covering can be prohibited...I see no issue with banning face veils at all.
As long as a person is not imposing his views upon others, should he/she be stopped from wearing the clothing of their choice if it does not cause any security/identification concern?
Is secularism the absence of religious bias or an active targeting of people who practice their religion in their personal life?

As long as a person is not assailing the religious beliefs (forbidden in Islam) of others and is only practicing his/her own faith without impeding the freedom of others, he/she is not a threat to any emancipated society.
However if person is a proponent of venomous views or an active struggle against other fellow nationals because of religious bias/hatred, he/she is not only non-compliant with secularism but original Islamic values as well (not the Terror Manual 2.0 preached by ISIS).
The cause of extremism is not headscarves, however banning headscarves is perhaps a form of extremism as well!
The causes of extremism are more geopolitical in nature. Extremism finds space within many conflicts across the globe, more so where there is a disenfranchisement of a people. It is the outcome of a planned exploitation of religious, ethnic, racial sentiments to ensure a steady supply of foot soldiers who can help the power brokers stay relevant.
Religion is one tool which is used for such purposes, but it is not the only one for sure.

Secularism, Democracy, Communism, Shariah etc.
These are all just broad terms we use to project certain cosmetic aspects of a social philosophy we adhere to; the fact is that many core attributes of all successful systems are based on the common values of freedom, justice, equality, merit, socioeconomic welfare etc. which should all be balanced within a framework of laws/rules which can help sustain these values.
No system shall be liked by the populace if it fails on delivering across these multiple fronts to a reasonable extent!
The proponents of Shariah also cite the great examples of justice, equality, merit, welfare etc. which was set during the earliest era of Islam and was present for all citizens of the state regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity etc. Similar aspirations are claimed by proponents of other ideologies as well.

However the problem occurs when a popular ideology is methodically distorted, re-purposed and used to justify vile practices which are based on bias, exploitation, hatred, greed etc.
The draconian laws and highly questionable practices which the IS, Taliban are implementing is not Islam in its essence, it is their own cosmetic Islamic system with the objective of furthering their power base at any cost; even if it means complete divergence from Islam (except for few rituals) in most key areas resulting in a severe ideological damage to the very faith and ensuing social philosophy which they claim to serve in all their propaganda!
Same is the case of the other global power groups which have made war a highly profitable business and operate with impunity in the name of freedom/democracy, despite spreading more chaos!

The goals of all the projected systems are derived from the principles of human welfare, however their implementation can lead to a lot more divergence/friction because every system and its advocates/critics create extremist views of a varying nature. The society which does not control these extremist tendencies effectively due to its own insecurities, biases, geopolitical situation and leadership failures is usually painted in a shade of extremism more relevant to its particular realities.

We can debate what sort of extremism is more detrimental to the human cause, however the architects of manipulative ideologies are primarily focused on their own interest and instead of owning or acknowledging the ugliness of the dire consequences of their actions/failures they exert all efforts to manipulate certain sentiments/vulnerabilities in order to justify the righteousness of their cause as an end which justifies any means necessary, no matter what the effects maybe on the social fabric!
Of course all such parties carefully doctor their own facts in order to resonate with the audience on some level and create “us versus them emotions” to dominate the sociopolitical landscape!
Whether it is the ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Nazis etc. throughout history we see power brokers perpetrating cruelty and breeding intolerance, all the while claiming serve a higher cause.

We only have to look at the current state of Pakistan and the vision of its founding fathers to understand that extremism gradually creeps in when the State fails to deliver on key fronts and disenfranchises some or many of its own people; thus presenting an opportunity to power hungry forces which shall manipulate facts, exploit public sentiments and leverage geopolitical realities to create ideological space in order to gain power and stay relevant; truth be damned…
Despite many forces having conflicting views in Pakistan, majority of the common people expect that the philosophy they support shall be able to deliver a culture of justice, equality, merit and socioeconomic welfare.
This is all that matters to the majority of the people, delivering on these parameters shall deny the very oxygen on which extremism thrives…
Rest God shall be the judge of our individual faith and shoving religious views down each other’s throat was never the purpose of Islam.

To me the vision for the creation of Pakistan (and a Muslim state) is best reflected in line of the 11th August 1947 Speech given by its founding father to the constitutional assembly.
This vision neither conflicts with the true values of Islam nor with secularism/democracy etc.

"In course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State."

In my opinion, the roots of extremism cannot be eliminated through policies which reek of ethnic/religious bias and thus further disenfranchise a certain people instead of integrating them.
Steps which single out the Muslim community and imposes humiliating restrictions is perhaps not going to help bridge any divide. This is playing into the hands of both Islamic and Anti-Islamic extremism which needs this clash of civilizations to stay relevant.
Secularism and Islam can coexist…we humans share a lot of common values and differ only in certain personal matters/preferences which should not be a cause of friction in an embracing and functional system which may have different roots e.g. Islamic, Secular etc.
Countless practicing Muslims living harmoniously in US, Europe, India etc. are proof that problem is not Islam and/or its clash with secularism…
It is only certain highly active lobbies which try to convince us otherwise...to increase their power-base through exploitation of popular sentiments prevalent at the time.

Whatever our faith and ethnicity maybe, I hope and pray that we develop enough wisdom, tolerance and foresight to repel these forces.
 
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I am wondering that French govt always interference in the other countries such as Libya Syria etc.They bombardment on these countries on the order of USA against the govt and Army of these countries. Will they not react?USA is so far but Europe is not so far. If their would be no Muslim community in Europe then another Hitler will born and Europe will face another civil war such as 1914 and 1940.

Civil war?

Different countries have different rules. Some countries allow Sikhs to carry kirpan(dagger). About Pakistan, I don't know whether Sikhs are allowed to carry kirpan(dagger) but in India it is legally allowed. Article 25 of the Indian Constitution deems the carrying of a kirpan to be included in the profession of the Sikh religion,[14]thus legalizing the carrying of a kirpan by Sikhs.

Sweden
Swedish law has a ban on "street weapons" in public places that includes knives unless used for recreation (for instance fishing) or profession (for instance a carpenter). Carrying some smaller knives, typically folding pocket knives, is allowed, so that smaller kirpans may be within the law.
Denmark
On 24 October 2006, the Eastern High Court of Denmark upheld the earlier ruling of the Copenhagen City Court that the wearing of a kirpan by a Sikh was illegal, becoming the first country in the world to pass such a ruling.


While I am a strong admirer of the Khalsa, if we criticise some Muslim beliefs for having originated in tribal society in the 8th century, what is the justification for Sikhs holding on to what Guru Gobind Singh prescribed in the eighteenth century? And especially since none of the previous nine felt it necessary to militarise the religion.

IDK why western members are aloof from reality.
People migrate (legal/illegal) to former colonial masters country bcz they know the language. Indians prefer, UK, USA, Australia etc
France is surely a giant in Science and tech but we are discussing its politics.
Being rich is not a measure of prosperity. I bet Italy is more wealthy (not rich) in tradition and as society compared to US (Park in front of MIT university is famous as rape park bcz teachers & students don't go to parking w/o guard accompanying them)
http://harvardlawreview.org/2015/06...ronting-the-reality-of-target-rape-on-campus/

What is Switzerland economic model. They invited looters, from all over the world, to deposited their balck money in their banks. So Swiss got surplus cash to build themselves.
And Why Swiss chocolate is famous, despite they don't produce ounce of Cocoa beans. Will Nestle (swiss company) allowed, Cocoa producer (some african countries) making their own brand? Hell no!!! It will surely monopolize and cease such activities in these countries.

Lastly, European members, your country wealth/prosperity/money is not in your ownership (so yours chest beating for others achievements is pointless, Unless you personally have done something great yourself). My point is, making a jet engine is not my accomplishment nor yours.
Yes, you may belong to a great country but all the money belongs to Govt/Corporate sector/Industrialists/Banks etc.. And Its always, few people in every country who own these. Corporate people don't have nationality, but interests. You think D'assault, or Renault will safeguard their interests (~money) or patriotism. ?

Solely on the point of Swiss banking practice, you are wrong. Swiss laws were re-cast to protect Jews sending away their money when Hitler came to rule. These numbered therefore unidentifiable accounts were therefore very attractive afterwards, to a variety of people, some legitimate, some not.

Given historical ties,common Latin ancestry,members of the Francophonie,being European citizens,a Romanian is 100 more times more entitled to talk about France than someone from the swampland of Bangladesh.

And no,you can dream of France becoming irrelevant,little people can have big dreams but ,as i've said,big populations and small brain counts for nothing.It will only lead to starvation.

@flamer84

Ah, but you overlook important data. We are not from the swampland of Bangladesh any more.
 
And especially since none of the previous nine felt it necessary to militarise the religion

Joe Sir, after the execution of Guru Arjan Ji (5th Guru of Sikhs), by the Mughal emperor Jahangir. Guru Hargobind Ji initiated the military tradition within Sikhism, not Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Sir, if I've misinterpreted your post (post), do let me; I'll go ahead and delete it.
 
I do not think that a Muslim living in a secular country is incompatible.
Practicing true Islamic values in your personal life is not something which should lead towards a person having a mutually antagonistic relationship with a truly secular society which does not allow religious bias to marginalize anyone.
There is something wrong, either with that person's interpretation of Islam or the society's claim to be secular if this is the case!

In this case headscarves are being considered a threat which is not something logical and in my opinion highly objectionable even from a secular point of view!
To be fair, the headscarf does not hide the face so it has no security implications as well.
If someone covers their face (not mandated by Islam) then they can be asked to remove it or even face covering can be prohibited...I see no issue with banning face veils at all.
As long as a person is not imposing his views upon others, should he/she be stopped from wearing the clothing of their choice if it does not cause any security/identification concern?
Is secularism the absence of religious bias or an active targeting of people who practice their religion in their personal life?

As long as a person is not assailing the religious beliefs (forbidden in Islam) of others and is only practicing his/her own faith without impeding the freedom of others, he/she is not a threat to any emancipated society.
However if person is a proponent of venomous views or an active struggle against other fellow nationals because of religious bias/hatred, he/she is not only non-compliant with secularism but original Islamic values as well (not the Terror Manual 2.0 preached by ISIS).
The cause of extremism is not headscarves, however banning headscarves is perhaps a form of extremism as well!
The causes of extremism are more geopolitical in nature. Extremism finds space within many conflicts across the globe, more so where there is a disenfranchisement of a people. It is the outcome of a planned exploitation of religious, ethnic, racial sentiments to ensure a steady supply of foot soldiers who can help the power brokers stay relevant.
Religion is one tool which is used for such purposes, but it is not the only one for sure.

Secularism, Democracy, Communism, Shariah etc.
These are all just broad terms we use to project certain cosmetic aspects of a social philosophy we adhere to; the fact is that many core attributes of all successful systems are based on the common values of freedom, justice, equality, merit, socioeconomic welfare etc. which should all be balanced within a framework of laws/rules which can help sustain these values.
No system shall be liked by the populace if it fails on delivering across these multiple fronts to a reasonable extent!
The proponents of Shariah also cite the great examples of justice, equality, merit, welfare etc. which was set during the earliest era of Islam and was present for all citizens of the state regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity etc. Similar aspirations are claimed by proponents of other ideologies as well.

However the problem occurs when a popular ideology is methodically distorted, re-purposed and used to justify vile practices which are based on bias, exploitation, hatred, greed etc.
The draconian laws and highly questionable practices which the IS, Taliban are implementing is not Islam in its essence, it is their own cosmetic Islamic system with the objective of furthering their power base at any cost; even if it means complete divergence from Islam (except for few rituals) in most key areas resulting in a severe ideological damage to the very faith and ensuing social philosophy which they claim to serve in all their propaganda!
Same is the case of the other global power groups which have made war a highly profitable business and operate with impunity in the name of freedom/democracy, despite spreading more chaos!

The goals of all the projected systems are derived from the principles of human welfare, however their implementation can lead to a lot more divergence/friction because every system and its advocates/critics create extremist views of a varying nature. The society which does not control these extremist tendencies effectively due to its own insecurities, biases, geopolitical situation and leadership failures is usually painted in a shade of extremism more relevant to its particular realities.

We can debate what sort of extremism is more detrimental to the human cause, however the architects of manipulative ideologies are primarily focused on their own interest and instead of owning or acknowledging the ugliness of the dire consequences of their actions/failures they exert all efforts to manipulate certain sentiments/vulnerabilities in order to justify the righteousness of their cause as an end which justifies any means necessary, no matter what the effects maybe on the social fabric!
Of course all such parties carefully doctor their own facts in order to resonate with the audience on some level and create “us versus them emotions” to dominate the sociopolitical landscape!
Whether it is the ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Nazis etc. throughout history we see power brokers perpetrating cruelty and breeding intolerance, all the while claiming serve a higher cause.

We only have to look at the current state of Pakistan and the vision of its founding fathers to understand that extremism gradually creeps in when the State fails to deliver on key fronts and disenfranchises some or many of its own people; thus presenting an opportunity to power hungry forces which shall manipulate facts, exploit public sentiments and leverage geopolitical realities to create ideological space in order to gain power and stay relevant; truth be damned…
Despite many forces having conflicting views in Pakistan, majority of the common people expect that the philosophy they support shall be able to deliver a culture of justice, equality, merit and socioeconomic welfare.
This is all that matters to the majority of the people, delivering on these parameters shall deny the very oxygen on which extremism thrives…
Rest God shall be the judge of our individual faith and shoving religious views down each other’s throat was never the purpose of Islam.

To me the vision for the creation of Pakistan (and a Muslim state) is best reflected in line of the 11th August 1947 Speech given by its founding father to the constitutional assembly.
This vision neither conflicts with the true values of Islam nor with secularism/democracy etc.

"In course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State."

In my opinion, the roots of extremism cannot be eliminated through policies which reek of ethnic/religious bias and thus further disenfranchise a certain people instead of integrating them.
Steps which single out the Muslim community and imposes humiliating restrictions is perhaps not going to help bridge any divide. This is playing into the hands of both Islamic and Anti-Islamic extremism which needs this clash of civilizations to stay relevant.
Secularism and Islam can coexist…we humans share a lot of common values and differ only in certain personal matters/preferences which should not be a cause of friction in an embracing and functional system which may have different roots e.g. Islamic, Secular etc.
Countless practicing Muslims living harmoniously in US, Europe, India etc. are proof that problem is not Islam and/or its clash with secularism…
It is only certain highly active lobbies which try to convince us otherwise...to increase their power-base through exploitation of popular sentiments prevalent at the time.

Whatever our faith and ethnicity maybe, I hope and pray that we develop enough wisdom, tolerance and foresight to repel these forces.

Great read, I would just like to add few things.

a. Most people and by extension societies have their comfort zone, when they observe something alien and out of character which may be benign or even completely self contained - it creates fear and anxiety. They cannot comprehend this new unknown thing and thus they perceive it as a threat. Now every action by this alien thing is seen with a negative perception which is more so ever reinforced by every negative action. In essence though we have claim to have evolved from our tribal beginnings, our primal instincts still guide us to a large extent.

b. Now the current times are characterized by hyper information. The prior point has always been relevant but it is even more effective when the perceptions are propagated quickly and seamlessly, spreading like a bubonic plague. So even those who have never seen or interacted with the alien, would come to fear it.

c. It just so happens that net migration is largely from Islamic world due to major conflicts within to resource and income rich Europe which also happens to relatively easily accessible. If let's say there had been a civil war in China or India and hoardes of Hindus had been landing at their doorsteps - even we would have been similarly castigated and our actions put through the scanner and magnified.

Now that aside we cannot ignore certain idiosyncrasies in Islam which need to be reformed and people better educated and sensitized irrespective of the fact that state should not interfere in the beliefs of the individual as long as it does not affect others. Ironically the rights of people are the first casualty during popular discontent
 
Joe Sir, after the execution of Guru Arjan Ji (5th Guru of Sikhs), by the Mughal emperor Jahangir. Guru Hargobind Ji initiated the military tradition within Sikhism, not Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Sir, if I've misinterpreted your post (post), do let me; I'll go ahead and delete it.

Not at all. It is an informative response. But (my turn), correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Guru Gobind Singh ji adopt the Panj Piyaras and the five 'K's?

I am always happy to be corrected on matters of fact. Thank you for intervening.

You see,you're only confirming the crux of the matter.Those who commited terrorist acts in France were supposed to be French.They've entered a contract,became citizens and were supposed to be loyal.But in France,all over Europe in fact,many muslims don't abide by that contract and instantly turn on their adoptive countries.Ofcourse people are angry,they're being backstabbed by those who were given shelter.

This is the same for @UKBengali ,supposedly a UK citizen,all he does is cheer for China or other non UK statal entities.These people are not loyal citizens,they're a fitfh column.



And before that ,for 500 years,people from Algeria were raiding French shores and enslaving people.

....and Spanish, and Sardinian, and Corsican, and Italian, and Sicilian....they even contributed to the re-founding of the US Navy, since the Coast Guard could not do much against them.

Most of Algerians 2nd,3rd generation are sons/daughters of Algerians who fought for France,as their forefathers left with the French.It's not about the imaginary genocide in Algeria,as their parents commited that "genocide" by that logic,they're rallying under a foreign religious banner against their country.


Hang on, that is not entirely right. 'Most' was a good word to use.

There were three classes of Algerians involved in the bad times. One, the immigrants from France, who took over the fertile coastal belt, formed an immigrant society which kept to itself, and returned to France when the relationship broke down. Two, those Algerians who 'integrated', were comfortable with French social customs and manners and formed themselves into a class that was a mixture of French and Algerian. Most of these were massacred after the French departure; the few survivors did, some of them, make it to France. There were, however, very large numbers of Algerians who fought the French, but who through circumstance, not necessarily through carefully planned career-oriented moves, found themselves in quest of a better life with friends and relatives from their own community in France.

It was winter back then. We will invade the secular lands in summer this time hopefully.

Will you buy your tickets on line?
 
A
France is a real secular country (unlike an certain sharia republic in south asia) and islamists will get the proverbial kick in the nuts from the french.
And French economy will also be kicked when it sells it weapons to Islamic countries Ksa rejected rafale after sarkozy banned

Banning is very easy but countries like USA UK never banned it it not called secularism it called new form of Nazism in France who tell u what to wear what to eat
 
A

And French economy will also be kicked when it sells it weapons to Islamic countries Ksa rejected rafale after sarkozy banned

GCC countries are still spending billions to buy french weapons....
If you think that relations between countries will stop over few non important issues....
 
Downfall? The Ottoman sultan was the Caliph....he had the Ummah behind him.Plus,what's the glory in defeating tiny Balkan states ? Never did the Romanians enjoyed superiority in numbers aginst the Ottomans,on the contrary.... Once entering Central Europe,the *** kicking began.Still,it was the same Europeans who protected Constantinople from falling.

In the end....the end result matters.By the way.read about the 2nd Balkan War,the Romanians saved Turkey from loosing all its Balkan possesions ;)




Actually they did,no different from many organisations today.That's why many Algerians fought for the French.So,they ended up terrorising Algerians,like all terrorists.
Mate; the Ottomans faced the greatest European powers combined; they were fighting wars in all known continents. From Indonesia, African, Gulf, Caucasus, Crimea, Persia and the Balkans. Ottomans began to decline because of Janissary refusal to modernize - before that, the Ottomans were the most technologically advanced nation. Also, last time I checked - Europeans were the first to sack Constantinople by betraying their 'Christian(orthodox) Brothers'.
 

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