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PAF superiority over IAF in 65 war

sure.. take your time. :-) I respect your insight and first hand knowledge of 1965 war.
You were in PAF in 1965. But your silence on the debate on PAF inventory in 1965 seems quite intriguing.:whistle:

I told you once be careful and I don't want to say that again:angry: If you think you are such a smart ***, You could have found the answer from the net.

Here you go kid.[/B]
PAF got 120 sabers from USA, 114 from Iran.
Pakistan did a smart thing they paid Iran for the sabers when the sabers arrived in Iran we went and got all 114 of them, When USA asked whats going on they said we are sending them to Pakistan for upgrades , The Iranian Sabers were based in Karachi known as 32 wing. Rest were sent to other bases including FLS. I was in 17 SQD when the Iranian sabers came.
 
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I told you once be careful and I don't want to say that again:angry: If you think you are such a smart ***, You could have found the answer from the net.

Here you go kid.[/B]
PAF got 120 sabers from USA, 114 from Iran.
Pakistan did a smart thing they paid Iran for the sabers when the sabers arrived in Iran we went and got all 114 of them, When USA asked whats going on they said we are sending them to Pakistan for upgrades , The Iranian Sabers were based in Karachi known as 32 wing. Rest were sent to other bases including FLS. I was in 17 SQD when the Iranian sabers came.
and those iranian sabres were used in 1971 war if i am not wrong sir!
 
Murad sb.. Thats was my ladli car..too attached to it to change the name..
On a another note.. I remember AVM Ansari telling me something interesting.. said the favorite activity of his on the sabre was taking it to 20000 and then putting it in a spin.. letting it spin all the way down to 5000 for recovery.. and in no danger at all.. is it really all that easy??
 
Murad sb.. Thats was my ladli car..too attached to it to change the name..
On a another note.. I remember AVM Ansari telling me something interesting.. said the favorite activity of his on the sabre was taking it to 20000 and then putting it in a spin.. letting it spin all the way down to 5000 for recovery.. and in no danger at all.. is it really all that easy??

Saber was a dream come true it was a fantastic fighter, And yes Ansari SB is right we used to do that and there was not danger why.
Because of its wings the way they were designed and same thing in F-6 if you are at 5000 you better eject , I went into a flat spin because of thunder storm over sargodha and I recovered at 2000 ft.
I swear saber was the best. I have flown 15 types of fighters but I am still in love with sabers. Saber in capable hands was a deadly fighter.
We used to go head to head with Mirages and beat them. :pakistan:
 
Yes yes your right.. the PAF was operating X-wings and Y-Wings with you guys fighting on donkeyback...
Now stop whining about it!.
Nice Answer Bro!!! Now they are gonna justify this by saying that we had the "Best" A2A missile which had a zero miss probability.
 
No doubt they did an outstanding job when they started to recognise which Aircraft is ours and which one is the enemy. John Fricker came to my base when I was commanding and flew with him half a dozen missions he asked me what scares you the most and I said
A Fauji with a Air to Air fire power he said way and I answered him laughing :lol: The fauji will look up and say TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN and fire:lol::lol::lol:

well said sir, :lol: who says learning history is boring, that in reality ends my "early" morning tension i was suffering after posting few civilian posts at other forum.
 
MuradK,

I read an interesting article in a Indian periodical about the role of PAF bombers in the '65 conflict. Please comment on the bolded parts.

Was the F-104 really unsuited/under utilized as claimed by Haider?


www.outlookindia.com | The Debt Owed

In my last piece, I analysed how Pakistan’s foray into Indian Kashmir in August 1965 spun out of control and turned into an all-out war with India on Sept 6. I drew on an interview with Air Commodore (retired) Sajad Haider. This column concludes that conversation.

Haider’s squadron, Number 19 based in Peshawar, earned five gallantry awards during the war. It flew over 630 operational missions and destroyed 15 Indian Air Force (IAF) aircraft on the ground. Among the PAF squadrons, Number 19 also destroyed the highest number of Indian tanks and armoured vehicles.

Of course, many other PAF squadrons excelled during the war. And no student of air combat can forget the kills scored by Squadron Leader M.M. Alam, the subcontinent’s only ace.

How did the PAF achieve air superiority over the much larger IAF? I put this question to Haider and he said that the PAF enjoyed superior leadership at the top. Air Marshal Asghar Khan, the first Pakistani air chief, had fashioned it into a fine fighting machine.

By early June 1965, the PAF was ready for war. Every tactical squadron “had rehearsed its war role to perfection”. The new air chief, Air Marshal Nur Khan, put the PAF on red alert as he flew over Kashmir on Sept 1. The PAF had honed its pilots to a point where “excellence became a habit and not just an option”. Haider says that the combat proficiency of the PAF pilots was borne out during training exercises in the US and Germany. Some USAF commanders felt that PAF pilots were superior to Israeli Air Force pilots.

Haider says, “We lived, talked, ate and slept with our missions. Professional excellence was also displayed by air defence controllers, maintenance crews and logistic personnel.”

The IAF high command did not have a proper war plan. And its Achilles’ heel was the airfield attack mission. Haider argues that IAF pilots tended to conduct ad hoc operations and did not display the will to achieve their mission objectives since they “were always in a hurry to attack swiftly without aiming accurately”. He faults the IAF high command for abandoning missions for inexplicable reasons and showing a lack of initiative and drive. However, he adds, that the IAF pilots were not lacking in courage.

As an example, he cites the situation that existed when dawn broke on Sept 7. The IAF was poised to launch a series of retaliatory air raids but it woke up to find the “thunder and flash of bombs raining down on the runways from PAF’s B-57 bombers. Several of the IAF raids were delayed till the all-clear sirens were sounded”. But he adds that the operation was also a tribute to the IAF fighter pilots who took the risk of rolling down runways knowing that they were smeared with shrapnel.

Haider says that contrary to the popular impression in Pakistan, the IAF had many good flyers. A pilot flying a subsonic Dassault Mystere IV fighter shot down a Mach 2 Lockheed F-104 aircraft over Sargodha. Two of the very best PAF pilots, Squadron Leader Sarfraz Rafiqui and Flight Lieutenant Yunus, were shot down over the IAF base in Halwara by relatively junior pilots flying the Hawker Hunter Mk. 56.

Years later, Haider had an opportunity to compare notes with his counterparts in the IAF. This took place in England with a MiG-21 pilot in 1970 and later in 2007 via email with an air marshal who had commanded a squadron during the war.

Haider says, “Both were eye witnesses to the PAF attack on Pathankot on the 6th where we destroyed 11 aircraft and damaged two. As acknowledged on : Bharat-Rakshak.com - The Consortium of Indian Military and Defence Websites :, the IAF thought it was a devastating strike.”

The North American F-86F Sabre aircraft with six half-inch calibre Browning machine guns mounted in the nose was the mainstay of the PAF. But in 1965 this aircraft which had blasted Chinese and North Korean MiG 15s during the Korean War was showing its age. Nevertheless, Haider says the Sabre performed “magnificently in all roles even though it was inferior in power and speed to the IAF Hunters”.

The PAF inventory also included a squadron of F-104 Starfighters. With its missile-like fuselage and small trapezoidal wings, the Starfighter was called the pride of the PAF. I asked Haider whether that aircraft lived up to its reputation. Haider said no, even though that squadron had the best PAF pilots. The reason was that the Starfighter “was unsuited to the tactical environment of the region. It was a high-level interceptor designed to neutralise Soviet strategic bombers in altitudes above 40,000 feet

Even then, the Starfighter was feared by the IAF and Haider opines that it could have been used with “devastating effect against exiting enemy aircraft, low on fuel, deep into our territory and running for life. But over-cautious commanders prevented that from happening”.

Similarly, the Starfighter’s pilots were prohibited from making strafing runs against parked IAF aircraft “because there had been one accident where the pilot crashed for insufficient pullout speed”. He says that the pilots should have been better trained in making low-altitude attacks using the Starfighter’s formidable 20 mm Vulcan Gatling gun which fired 6,000 rounds per minute
.

The B-57B light bomber was used by the PAF to carry out high-risk strikes against several IAF airfields. But the extensive damage caused by these raids only came out in 2005, notes Haider, when two Indian writers (Mohan and Chopra) published their account of the air war based on interviews with IAF veterans. The PAF’s bomber pilots remain the unsung heroes of the war.

As one looks back 44 years, it is clear that no one has displayed the right stuff as clearly as those few men who valiantly flew their war-birds emblazoned with the “star-and-crescent on green”. They saved their nation from certain destruction.

The debt owed by Pakistanis to the PAF is no less than the debt owed by Britons to the RAF. Winston Churchill’s words come to mind: “Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. All hearts go out to the fighter pilots whose brilliant actions we see with our own eyes day after day.”
 
MK sir is it true that we also went through same air superiority even over IAF in 1971?

IAF established complete superiority on E.Pak and local superiority on West Pak. simultaneously. This was bcos IAF was prepared for this. similar to PAf in the 65 war
 
Actually, the IAF achieved no kind of superiority over West Pakistan in 1971 either. Indian observers have tried to justify IAF's success through aspects other than comparative performance with the PAF i.e. purpose and direction of command. In 1971 the IAF did better than the IAF of 1965, but not better than the PAF of 1965 or 1971.
 
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IAF established complete superiority on E.Pak and local superiority on West Pak. simultaneously. This was bcos IAF was prepared for this. similar to PAf in the 65 war

Actually, the IAF achieved no kind of superiority over West Pakistan in 1971 either. Indian observers have tried to justify IAF's success through aspects other than comparative performance with the PAF i.e. purpose and direction of command. In 1971 the IAF did better than the IAF of 1965, but not better than the PAF of 1965 or 1971.

nightrider_saulat
answer to your question is yes we did and Mr Kasrkin is very right but Jesus Christ say something else who am I to argue with Jesus Christ.:lol::lol::lol: last thing I want is
Jimmy Lee Swaggart saying find this Muradk lets hang him or crucify him because he said something different from what Jesus said.
 
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nightrider_saulat
answer to your question is yes we did and Mr Kasrkin is very right but Jesus Christ say something else who am I to argue with Jesus Christ.:lol::lol::lol: last thing I want is
Jimmy Lee Swaggart saying find this Muradk lets hang him or crucify him because he said something different from what Jesus said.

lol. good one.

but my point of local superiority in all encounters with W Pak stays.
for eg. Battle of Longewala
 

nightrider_saulat
answer to your question is yes we did and Mr Kasrkin is very right but Jesus Christ say something else who am I to argue with Jesus Christ.:lol::lol::lol: last thing I want is
Jimmy Lee Swaggart saying find this Muradk lets hang him or crucify him because he said something different from what Jesus said.

"Uncle Mick O'B" was of a completely different Opinion.
 
The last time history repeated itself pakistan lost half the country. so it wont be a good idea mate... :-)

Pakistan Lost half the country because of many other factors and not because what India had to say about it. Is it so hard for you guys to comprehend that there was an insurgency and they had to fight on 2 fronts logistics was a night mare. And how lame are you guys that you actually take pride in such events that you helped brake a country into 2. That goes on to show the level of moral sickness that you have.
 

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