PAF's MBDA-SPADA 2000 Surface to Air Missile System.

[dbc]

USA wasn't even in the exercise,how can it use inferior equipment,lol.
I didn't put rafael on top of the world,the russian-slovaks did,and not on top of the world only better than the other platforms in the exercise by far.And that electronically.Which is plausible since rafale is the newest and spectra amounts to 30-35% of the entire cost of the plane i think.This 90s tech as u say is only operational on rafale and raptor probably atm[raptor doesn't need it i think being all aspect stealth] and probably later in eurofighter and f-35.
A Stealthier Rafale?

Rafale makes extensive use of radar-absorbent material (RAM) in the form of paints and other materials, Dassault engineers have said. RAM forms a saw-toothed pattern on the wing and canard trailing edges, for instance. The aircraft is designed to so that its untreated radar signature is concentrated in a few strong "spikes," which are then suppressed by the selective use of RAM.

Spectra's active jamming subsystem uses phased-array antennas located at the roots of the canards. Dassault has stated that the EW transmit antennas can produce a pencil beam compatible with the accuracy of the receiver system, concentrating power on the threat while minimizing the chances of detection.

But there is more to Spectra than conventional jamming. Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, a Thales engineer on the Spectra program, remarked in a 1997 interview that Spectra uses "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO [low-observable] aircraft." When asked if he was talking about active cancellation, Chaltiel declined to answer.

Earlier this year, Thales and European missile-builder MBDA disclosed that they were working on active-cancellation technology for cruise missiles and had already tested it on a small unmanned aerial vehicle, using a combination of active and passive techniques to manage radar signature. This revelation makes it considerably more likely that active cancellation is already being developed for Rafale.

Active cancellation is a LO technique in which the aircraft, when painted by a radar, transmits a signal which mimics the echo that the radar will receive - but one half-wavelength out of phase, so that the radar sees no return at all. The advantage of this technique is that it uses very low power, compared with conventional EW, and provides no clues to the aircraft's presence; the challenge is that it requires very fast processing and that poorly executed active cancellation could make the target more rather than less visible.

The complexity of active cancellation could account for Spectra's high price tag, estimated in 1997 as "several billion francs" (equivalent to the high hundreds of millions of US dollars) for research and development. One of four Rafale prototypes was dedicated to Spectra tests, along with a Falcon 20 flying testbed. Four new large anechoic chambers were built to support the Spectra project, including one which is large and well equipped enough to operate the complete system in a fully detailed electromagnetic environment.
Rafale, Dassault-Breguet

Fine lets get back to spada.

You seem to be hell bent on proving that the S-300 is no match for the Rafale. It may be true, but this is the kind of information that is closely guarded by the military and unlikely to be revealed by some anonymous poster on some obscure internet forum. If you want to talk about the omnipotence of the Rafale I suggest you head to the Rafale fanboyz thread. There you can make your grand claims about your favourite hobby horse unchallenged.

 

[GURU DUTT]

well the thread is about : PAF's MBDA-SPADA 2000 Surface to Air Missile System. and possiballi what threat it possess to IAFs plans against PAF and how to counter it if you look from Indian Point of view

Well it hardly Matters as IAF will never attack the Pakistan First , now what if IAF strikes in retaliation to PAFs aggerssion and what role MBDA SPADA 2000 offers to IAF

Kh-58 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. IAF is Least bothered about it as all owr platforms are having extended range ARM's of Russian , french and israeli origin which have effective range which can easli target the spada batteries withowt exposing owr airmen to any danger

2. IAF can also Take owt pakistani SAM and Radar sites with UAVs like israeli harop 1 & 2 which are basicalli of hunter killer role specially for high value targets

IAI Harop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


3. last but not the least we can target such targets thru long range PGMs & medium range loitring missiles like popye and delilah

Delilah (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Popeye (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rank]

well the thread is about : PAF's MBDA-SPADA 2000 Surface to Air Missile System. and possiballi what threat it possess to IAFs plans against PAF and how to counter it if you look from Indian Point of view

Well it hardly Matters as IAF will never attack the Pakistan First , now what if IAF strikes in retaliation to PAFs aggerssion and what role MBDA SPADA 2000 offers to IAF

Kh-58 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. IAF is Least bothered about it as all owr platforms are having extended range ARM's of Russian , french and israeli origin which have effective range which can easli target the spada batteries withowt exposing owr airmen to any danger

2. IAF can also Take owt pakistani SAM and Radar sites with UAVs like israeli harop 1 & 2 which are basicalli of hunter killer role specially for high value targets

IAI Harop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


3. last but not the least we can target such targets thru long range PGMs & medium range loitring missiles like popye and delilah

Delilah (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Popeye (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

lol itna asaan hota tu 26/11 kay baad tu tumharay jahaz Islamabad kay opar honay chhaye thay lol ham tu aaj tak wait he kar rahay hain

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

You seem to be hell bent on proving that the S-300 is no match for the Rafale. It may be true, but this is the kind of information that is closely guarded by the military and unlikely to be revealed by some anonymous poster on some obscure internet forum. If you want to talk about the omnipotence of the Rafale I suggest you head to the Rafale fanboyz thread. There you can make your grand claims about your favourite hobby horse unchallenged.

Looks like i touched a nerve,fine if u don't believe me.S-300 pmu1 is 80s tech.Rafale's electronics is latest.Perfectly logical to me that it succeeded against earlier gen planes like f-series,mirage 2000s taht essentially belong to the same era while outclassed by rafale.
If s-300PMU1[and this is pmu-1 version not the later ones] was great against everything russians wouldn't be phasing it out for s-400.500 and vityaz.My 'claims' are perfectly logical,its not my fault some posters can't take that anything not american can be world class.

 

[dbc]

Looks like i touched a nerve,fine if u don't believe me.S-300 pmu1 is 80s tech.Rafale's electronics is latest.Perfectly logical to me that it succeeded against earlier gen planes like f-series,mirage 2000s taht essentially belong to the same era while outclassed by rafale.
If s-300PMU1[and this is pmu-1 version not the later ones] was great against everything russians wouldn't be phasing it out for s-400.500 and vityaz.My 'claims' are perfectly logical,its not my fault some posters can't take that anything not american can be world class.

My disbelief is based on my technical understanding of the subject and years of relevant experience.
Gambit has explained the difficulties with active cancellation (destructive interference) several times but this has not deterred people from repeating the same dubious claims. I neither have the time nor the motivation to debunk such claims. In the meantime you can read the below post and try to understand and appreciate the issues involved in deceiving a system like the S-300 that employs multiple search and track radar.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/53000-what-wrong-rafale-2.html#post778438

 

[DARKY]

I don't think I need to read any further. The 'Active Cancellation' you are mentioning was really a 90's technology. It it not something that's limited to Rafale only. It's used by many jets, including some of the Swedish jets, certain American, British, French and Russian jets, etc, too.

Mention other active wave cancelling jammers other than Rafale's Spectra and F-22's active wave cancel suits.

 

[rockstarIN]

''The French were working on active cancellation (AC) technologies for years and it looks like the were finally succesful. Last years "Mace XIII" exercise hold in Slovakia against a S-300PMU1 system had a clear winner: The Rafale B with the Spectra ECM system. The Rafale was the only one who made it against the S-300, using active cancellation and emitting "bogey targets".

Part of the "attacking force" were also French Air Force Mirage 2000Ds, Royal Danish Air Force F-16AMs, a NATO E-3A and a French Air Force E-3F, Royal Norwegian Air Force Falcon 20, Slovakian Air Force MiG-29AS/UBS and L-39ZAM. The Turkish Air Force participated with its F-4E-2020s Phantom II with israelian Elta EL/L-8222 ECM Pods. There was also a private owned German Learjet 35A with 2 Cassidian ECM pods. The "attacking force" (except the Rafale B) achieved a partial suppression of the S-300, but well-trained SAM crews were able to overcome this and keep the system combat ready. I. e. in a real fight the attacking force had to take serious losses.''

''In May 2012 a large exercise took place in Slovakia under the code name MACE XIII, where SA-300PMU was challenged by modern NATO ECM/ESM sets under complex SEAD procedures. Several NATO countries took part in this exercise, French Mirage and Rafale, Danish F-16, Norway with DA-20, NATO E-3 AWACS, Turkish F-4, German Learjet with ECM/ESM set and approximately 4 others ground jammers with some partial success, with the result, that S-300PMU with professionally trained crew is capable of effective operations under complex ECM/ESM environment with high level of success.''



U can gather these info from all over the net not just russian forums but blogs,and forums,why would russians prop up rafale,do u think they have some agenda to sell rafale?

@ptldM3 whats your knowledge about this exercise?


Also I want to know about the performance of Elta EL/L-8222 ECM Pod in that particular exercise.

 

[Major Sam]

My disbelief is based on my technical understanding of the subject and years of relevant experience.
Gambit has explained the difficulties with active cancellation (destructive interference) several times but this has not deterred people from repeating the same dubious claims. I neither have the time nor the motivation to debunk such claims. In the meantime you can read the below post and try to understand and appreciate the issues involved in deceiving a system like the S-300 that employs multiple search and track radar.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/53000-what-wrong-rafale-2.html#post778438

Thanks for this link. Do you have any info regarding pakistan AESA radars?

@Aeronaut @Oscar do we have AESA Radars . as US gave us TPS 77 are these are AESA whats their sophistication level in detection of Rafel?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The funny thing is despite what is apparently a totally flawed fighter,it has performed far better than its adversaries in ALL of the multinational fighter evaluations all over the world that have taken place.
Netherlands in early 2002 when the Dutch air force evaluated the aircrafts in competition (85 fighters). The F-35 Lockheed Martin was slightly ahead of the Rafale (6.97 against 6.95). However, the Eurofighter Typhoon dragged far behind with a score of 5.83.
The South Korea Air Force ranked Rafale first among the three aircraft evaluated (F-15E Boeing, Eurofighter) after technical and financial evaluations and offsets. In the end, Boeing had won the competition on purely political criteria

Singapore in 2005. Again, the Ministry of Defence of the city-state, which wants to buy 20 fighter as part of the NFRP tender eliminates the European aircraft. The Rafale in the final faces again the Boeing F-15E. The U.S. offer won in September 2005 on political considerations
Eurofighter, October 1, 2008 in Brazil, which is eliminated from the “F-X2″ competition while the Rafale, the Gripen NG (Saab) and the F-18E / F Super Hornet (Boeing) are shortlisted. In the end, the Brazilians enter into exclusive negotiations with Dassault Aviation, but dramatic turn of events , in December 2010, Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said during a TV interview, he will not decide before the end of his term on January 1 for the purchase of 36 fighter planes, an order estimated at between 4 and 7 billion.
Again switzerland 2011,another excellent performance by the flawed fighter.candidates rafale,eurofighter,gripen.Gripen chosen for cost despite rafale best performer.
MMRCA again rafale.
I guess all the professional evaluators in these air forces around the world are just rafale fanboys.

Here official swiss evaluation report leaked.
http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

Report was done in 2 parts-first part official flight evaluation ratings,second part ratings based on additional information given by constructors for delivery configuration in 2015.

Summary of the report-

PART1- 2008 Flight evaluation results.

1]AIR POLICING MISSION-
Ranked-rafale first[6.3 Score out of 9],eurofighter second[6.2],,gripen 4rth[4.3].Gripen didn't meet minimum expected capability.Swiss pilots confirm their favour for the ranking.

2]DEFENSIVE COUNTER AIR-
Only eurofighter and rafale performance satisfactory.
Rafale ranked first.[7.00]Eurofighter[6.06].Eurofighter lacked in EW and detection.

3]ESCORT/Offensive Counter Air -
Again rafale first.[7.12],eurofighter[6.21].Gripen [4.77]
Gripen found lacking in range,endurance and performance.Eurofighter in EW and sensors.

4]RECCE-
Rafale[7.57],gripen[5.39]Eurofighter[5.14].Only rafale passes.

5]STRIKE-
Rafale-7.21,gripen-5.12,eurofighter-5.02.Rafale passes.

PART-2-
2015 estimated effectiveness Reports.

1]AIR POLICING-
Rafale still best.[up from 6.71 to new score 6.98],eurofighter[up from 6.2 to 6.5],gripen[4.2-5.33]

2]DEFENSIVE COUNTER AIR-
Rafale still best[up From 7.00-7.28],eurofighter-[6.06-6.49],gripen-[4.64-5.68]

3]ESCORT-
Rafale[7.12-7.41],eurofighter[6,21-6.54],gripen[4.77-5.62]

4]RECCE-
Rafale-[7.57-7.63],gripen[5.39-5.79]eurofighter[5.14-5.43].

5]STRIKE-
Rafale-[7.21-7.54],gripen[5.13-5.80]eurofighter[5.02-5.75].

Rafale won in every category.
Acc to report-
''Strong points of the rafale were quality of its sensors such as radar,frontal optronics and EW suite SPECTRA.A good data fusion of all its sensors combine to give pilot very good situational awareness.Recce pod demonstrated outstanding performance.
Actual weak point of rafale is lack of Helmet mounted sight''

Well i guess,swiss were fooling around as well.

 

[dbc]

......off topic .....

We get it you heart Rafale, now can we discuss the thread topic?

 

[USAHawk785]

There are three things Pakistan needs ASAP in my opinion:
1) Air defense (long range and mobile SAMs and Radars), HQ series, possibly modification with western technology if China hasn't done so. Produce a local copy and create a huge network of AD in at least two layers
2) Aircraft in numbers. At least 300-400 BVR capable jets. Financials will play a role in everything obviously
3)

Aircraft carriers would be unfeasible for the Pakistan Navy, as the PN does not have the surface ships capable of protecting it against the formidable Indian Navy. In the event of a hypothetical war, these prized jewels would be the target of the IN's tactical strikes.

It would be wise for her to invest in corvettes and frigates with proven ASW capability, considering the IN's sub fleet.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Aircraft carriers would be unfeasible for the Pakistan Navy, as the PN does not have the surface ships capable of protecting it against the formidable Indian Navy. In the event of a hypothetical war, these prized jewels would be the target of the IN's tactical strikes.

It would be wise for her to invest in corvettes and frigates with proven ASW capability, considering the IN's sub fleet.

Id suggest them to go for more subs... although 4 F-23P frigs,2 type54As(stated by naval chief?),1 nuclear sub,4 indigenous LCV corvettes and 6 AIP subs are in the pipeline.. and navy is also interested in milgems... and hopefully more OPHs upgraded with Genesis...

 

[USAHawk785]

Id suggest them to go for more subs... although 4 F-23P frigs,2 type54As(stated by naval chief?),1 nuclear sub,4 indigenous LCV corvettes and 6 AIP subs are in the pipeline.. and navy is also interested in milgems... and hopefully more OPHs upgraded with Genesis...

I would definitely encourage the PN's growth because as it stands, it would be crushed by the IN in the event of a naval conflict. I agree with you that at least 5 more subs would be necessary to at least threaten IN's Western Fleet. At least have the INS Viraat within her sights. Subs could threaten their INS Vikramaditya, as well.

Sink 1 of their carriers, and you will make a strategic blow to the IN's blue water capability and thereby challenge their dominance in the IOR.

 

[Viper0011.]

Aircraft carriers would be unfeasible for the Pakistan Navy, as the PN does not have the surface ships capable of protecting it against the formidable Indian Navy. In the event of a hypothetical war, these prized jewels would be the target of the IN's tactical strikes.

It would be wise for her to invest in corvettes and frigates with proven ASW capability, considering the IN's sub fleet.

I wasn't even referring to any Naval ship expansion. Nor an aircraft carrier strike group is feasible or needed for a small country like Pakistan. My post was written specifically for the fact that the PN might get overwhelmed due to the IN. In which case, if the land based SAM system was integrated, mobile and provided long range multi layer defense capability, it'll stop the IN's air fleet's movement to majority of the degree away from the ports, out by over a 100 mile due to long range SAMS. That's a lot of cover for a smaller area like the coastal line around the Arabian Sea that touches Pakistan.
Then, if there were about 4 squadrons of BVR capable jets in a dedicated Naval support role, or Naval Air Arm, that would cause tremendous amount of pain for the IN. They'll have to push their AC out by some 200 miles and that reduces their operational radius down to a quarter of its real effectiveness. Not to mention, the IN ships will be hesitant in coming too close to the Pakistani sea lanes due to heavy air support and SAM support combination.
Lastly, a good number of subs with AIP - MESMA, would cause additional pain. A blockade can totally be avoided with the scenario above. In the long run the IN will win. BUT....due to both countries being nuclear.....no one can predict how long will the 'long run' be!

 

[GURU DUTT]

lol itna asaan hota tu 26/11 kay baad tu tumharay jahaz Islamabad kay opar honay chhaye thay lol ham tu aaj tak wait he kar rahay hain

well asan to kuch bhi nahi hota per jane do baat door tak nikal jayegi

on topic the thread is about MBDA SPADA 2000 which is a short-medium range missile system which is great for low level interception but unlike the SAM systems across the border which are all highly mobile SPADA 2000 is a stationarry platform which is a juicy target for BVR anty radiation missiles , hunter killer drones and long range PGMs

now why dint we attacked you during 26/11 mumbai episode well bro when owr work and targets were achieved (making pakistan go on defensive and getting world sympathy and owr armed forces gettong more potent teeth P8 & C130J from the US)

why on earht we should attack a country which is bieng torn apart by its own strategikk(terrorism & bomb blasts) assets and its so called "friends not masters"(espionage & drone attacks)