Pakistan survival without Kashmir???

[Tiki Tam Tam]

If it is against the Treaty, it will be stopped.

Pakistan is lucky that there is a Treaty,

India has none with China!!

And while India agreed to a Treaty, China shall never!!

But interestingly, one is taking the thick with the thin!!

 

[IceCold]

It is not at all clear why Pakistan has not already exercised this option when the present power and wheat crises can safely be ascribed to the Indian plan and its heavy spending on it. Already, 88 percent of tubewells and canals are down, and we are forced to import no less than 4 million tons of wheat to manage and avoid shortages similar to this year’s.

The point is whoever is in the government is not allowed to do its work thanks to our opposition, even the good work is being sent down the drain because individual benefits are more important to pakistanies as compared to the countries interests. That is why pakistan did not exercised this option.
However i do not think myself that exercising such options will do us any good. The strategy shift towards india of all major powers most notably the US will not let anything else in favour of pakistan to happen. Not even the UN itself. What we do need however is do three things:

1) Give india a strong message that if india will continue to carry on with the projects running pakistan dry, we will declare war.

2) We need to find an alternative to the water supply be it from china. Even if the cost is too much we'll have to bare it otherwise we will become another africa.

3) We need to build all major dams irrespective of what are so called political leaders say. Specially the KalaBagh Dam. We need to finish our all major water development projects before it gets too late and we run dry.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Indeed why a message?

Start a war.

Both the armies require to be in practice, right?

How can China give water to Pakistan?

They can't air transport the same.

Nor does technology, given the terrain, allow a change of course that could avoid going through India.

At best, they can use technology to prevent the waters from reaching India.

Pakistan then will be equally dry!!

Nepal will also run dry.

China will then be the hero of the world?

The very idea is technologically unsound and politically immature.

 

[IceCold]

Indeed why a message?

Start a war.

Both the armies require to be in practice, right?

Dont act so childish! after all its not us who are building dams and thus violating the terms and conditions of the Indus treaty. You openly violate the terms and then you dont expect others to even complain about it or perhaps even send a strong message that we too mean business if india continues to carry on with such violations. What kind of pathetic attitude is that?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Dont act so childish! after all its not us who are building dams and thus violating the terms and conditions of the Indus treaty. You openly violate the terms and then you dont expect others to even complain about it or perhaps even send a strong message that we too mean business if india continues to carry on with such violations. What kind of pathetic attitude is that?

If you find it childish, my apologies.

But then, I find it childish that one should think that war will be a solution.

A strong or a weak message will deter no one, more so, countries who have fought more wars than necessary and who know each other's capability! In fact, the very idea is ridiculous and that is the very reason why both countries are seeking a political solution or even a status quo.

It is time we devote ourselves to the woes of our people and not act grand and sink into greater poverty and squalor.

What takes the cake is the ridiculous idea and immensely childish an ideas of China helping Pakistan by diverting the course of the rivers. They would laugh too even if immensely pleased that they are considered on the level of playing God! Neo has posted a picture to indicate the same. It is technologically and financially an impossibility and yet is is being harped upon as a "cure all"!

Only God can change the course of a river, given the terrain!!

Prayers can help and not China.

Daydreams are good, but then one should also awake to reality.

Therefore, am I childish just because I do not resort to visions, daydreams or nightmares?

No one has violated the Indus Water Treaty. Indeed, if they did none could do a damn.

Wherever there has been a dispute an international tribunal has adjudicated and the ruling has been honoured.

So, where is the beef?

Who indeed is pathetic!

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Dont act so childish! after all its not us who are building dams and thus violating the terms and conditions of the Indus treaty. You openly violate the terms and then you dont expect others to even complain about it or perhaps even send a strong message that we too mean business if india continues to carry on with such violations. What kind of pathetic attitude is that

How about seeing it this way, yes maybe according to you India might be building dams with evil design of starving Pakistan, but the way I see it, we are more saner then you think. India does not gain anything by starving Pakistan of water but however we can use it as one of the measures of bringing in pressure on you on negotiation table on Kashmir issue, It is in India's interest in remaining peaceful with Pakistan and maybe the water can be useed to bring pressure on Pakistan to accept LOC as IB and settle the issue for once and for all insted of thinking about oing for an allout war why don't you think in these lines

 

[IceCold]

How about seeing it this way, yes maybe according to you India might be building dams with evil design of starving Pakistan, but the way I see it, we are more saner then you think. India does not gain anything by starving Pakistan of water but however we can use it as one of the measures of bringing in pressure on you on negotiation table on Kashmir issue, It is in India's interest in remaining peaceful with Pakistan and maybe the water can be useed to bring pressure on Pakistan to accept LOC as IB and settle the issue for once and for all insted of thinking about oing for an allout war why don't you think in these lines

Exactly my point! You may not want to starve pakistan but you do want to blackmail pakistan, bring it on her knees so that you could achieve whatever unjust demands you may put upfront of pakistan and that may not restrict to Kashmir only. Whereever the strategic intererts of india will differ from pakistan and that by the way will always differ, india will cut off the water supply or perhaps threat to do so until pakistan accepts the demands. So do you really believe that we will actually let india do such a thing hold pakistan by its throat and strangle it. You are so seriously mistaken. Its better to die and bring you (india) with us rather to live at your mercy. Think on these lines as well.

 

[IceCold]

If you find it childish, my apologies.

But then, I find it childish that one should think that war will be a solution.

A strong or a weak message will deter no one, more so, countries who have fought more wars than necessary and who know each other's capability! In fact, the very idea is ridiculous and that is the very reason why both countries are seeking a political solution or even a status quo.

It is time we devote ourselves to the woes of our people and not act grand and sink into greater poverty and squalor.

What takes the cake is the ridiculous idea and immensely childish an ideas of China helping Pakistan by diverting the course of the rivers. They would laugh too even if immensely pleased that they are considered on the level of playing God! Neo has posted a picture to indicate the same. It is technologically and financially an impossibility and yet is is being harped upon as a "cure all"!

Only God can change the course of a river, given the terrain!!

Prayers can help and not China.

Daydreams are good, but then one should also awake to reality.

Therefore, am I childish just because I do not resort to visions, daydreams or nightmares?

No one has violated the Indus Water Treaty.
Wherever there has been a dispute an international tribunal has adjudicated and the ruling has been honoured.

So, where is the beef?

Who indeed is pathetic!

First of all in my post i said if its possible and then again i said we need to look at every mean including the chinese one if ever it is possible. And dont bring prayers into something where it doesnt belong. I also mentioned about building dams that have been pending due to internal political factors of pakistan. So noone is day dreaming here.

As for not violating the treaty, really! you think if that had not been the case why would the case be refered to the international tribunal?

Indeed, if they did none could do a damn.

Really! well let me assure you one thing, the day india decides to do so, you will indeed see if we could do a damn about it or not.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

First of all in my post i said if its possible and then again i said we need to look at every mean including the chinese one if ever it is possible. And dont bring prayers into something where it doesnt belong. I also mentioned about building dams that have been pending due to internal political factors of pakistan. So noone is day dreaming here.

As for not violating the treaty, really! you think if that had not been the case why would the case be refered to the international tribunal?


Really! well let me assure you one thing, the day india decides to do so, you will indeed see if we could do a damn about it or not.

I will be frank, I don't bite the explanation.

Are you suggesting that you have no idea of technology, economics, and engineering to realise it is not feasible to blow up a whole ranges in the mountains just to change a course of a river that flows through another country before it reaches Pakistan?

Do you seriously believe that it is feasible?

Let us say it is feasible for argument's sake. Do you think that China will divert her money (and a huge amount that is beyond any country) just to please Pakistan and lose out on her becoming a superpower that can challenge the US?

How much of wishful thinking that you want to do to slave your sorrow and helplessness?

Has the international tribunal not upheld Pakistan's complaint?

Why force an illusionary issue just to indicate your patriotic fervour?

Why make a non issue an issue and lace it with wild imagination just to play to the galleries?

Really! well let me assure you one thing, the day india decides to do so, you will indeed see if we could do a damn about it or not.

You once again indicate your solution with arms.

Have you been able to anything in the NWFP and US problem?

So, quit posturing without any logic in the cyberspace.

If the push comes to shove, so be it!

Neither you nor I can stop it!

Or are you the one who decides what Pakistan is to do?

 

[Energon]

Exactly my point! You may not want to starve pakistan but you do want to blackmail pakistan, bring it on her knees so that you could achieve whatever unjust demands you may put upfront of pakistan and that may not restrict to Kashmir only. Whereever the strategic intererts of india will differ from pakistan and that by the way will always differ, india will cut off the water supply or perhaps threat to do so until pakistan accepts the demands. So do you really believe that we will actually let india do such a thing hold pakistan by its throat and strangle it. You are so seriously mistaken. Its better to die and bring you (india) with us rather to live at your mercy. Think on these lines as well.

Pakistan has a history of perpetrating a mass insurgency in Kashmir along with incitement on religious basis to apply pressure on India as well. So to pretend that this is a one way street with Pakistan being the sole recipient is inaccurate to say the least.

Having said that, is there any credible evidence which suggests that India is in fact planning on cutting off Pakistan's water supply in its entirety? I find that a bit hard to believe primarily because exacting a negative impact upon Pakistan's agricultural sector which happens to be located along the Indian border would result in a mass scale humanitarian disaster which would eventually spill over and cause chaos in India itself.

 

[IceCold]

I will be frank, I don't bite the explanation.

Are you suggesting that you have no idea of technology, economics, and engineering to realise it is not feasible to blow up a whole ranges in the mountains just to change a course of a river that flows through another country before it reaches Pakistan?

Do you seriously believe that it is feasible?

Let us say it is feasible for argument's sake. Do you think that China will divert her money (and a huge amount that is beyond any country) just to please Pakistan and lose out on her becoming a superpower that can challenge the US?

How much of wishful thinking that you want to do to slave your sorrow and helplessness?

Has the international tribunal not upheld Pakistan's complaint?

Why force an illusionary issue just to indicate your patriotic fervour?

Why make a non issue an issue and lace it with wild imagination just to play to the galleries?

FIrst of all let me put it in simple english because you have a tendency to put words in other person's mouth which have never been said.
Now coming back to the original topic is it possible or not or whether i have any knowledge about it or not. The point is do you know for instance how was karakorum highway being built. Or did the God sent its army of engineers down to help us achieve our objectives in building it, was the mountains not being cut and it was made on one of the toughest terain where people like you could not have imagined about it being possible. Now about being feasible, first of all let me explain you what feasibility is, A feasibility is a report that is made by a team of experts set up from both sides who study the actual ground reality and then base on it make an actual ground analysis, its then discussed keeping all views and opinions in mind, the cost analysis and much more then you and me sitting here can keep arguing on whether it is possible or not. That is the only reason why feasibility reports take years to complete and not day or months before projects of such huge magnitude could commence. Just because you say it is not possible because of the map drawn in your head from old times or i say it is by just looking at the map doesnt change the fact, that indeed it could be or indeed it could not be.But you cannot challenge my position on it because you say its not possible without having anykind of ground knowledge of whether it would be or not.The amount of knowledge that you claim to have, believe me its not even half that much of what you claim. And that is why i said that pakistan need to exercise all option including this one IF IT IS POSSIBLE
I've highlighted the part for you so you dont miss it this time and start putting words into my mouth which i never uttered.

Now coming on to the second part, the cost issue. Again you misquoted my post. I very clearly said that if and only if a solution of this sort is somewhat possible and india decides to carry on with drying pakistan out by building damns violating the treaty, we will have no option but to bare the cost no matter how hard or difficult it maybe, otherwise we may become another africa. How will we bare the cost, that is another debate and for another time, but nowhere did i ever mention that china will going to do so just to please us, rather its you who cannot understand and have a tendency to mold things up what bests suit your agenda for argument sake. I'll recomend that you do read my posts atleast twice before taking a meaning of your own out of it.
As for you comments for slaving my sorrows, lol i wouldnt want to comment on that, the reason is i like to debate not get personal with you though i can, still i prefer to keep the conversation decent and mature without getting involved into personal attacks which by the way you seem to be very fond off.

You once again indicate your solution with arms.

Was it me or you who said no one could a damn about it. Do you seriously believe that you can dry pakistan out and we will not utter a word, you are so seriously mistaken.

Have you been able to anything in the NWFP and US problem?

Now how did that fit into the equation. And by the way what problem are you referring to in the NWFP? Havent you go enough on this issue from Jana and others, that you now want me to indulge in it. Believe me i would be the last person you would ever want to get engage with on this issue. It would probally derail the thread which i donot want at the moment and which seems to be your primarly objective to close this thread, which is why you brought the issue in at the first place.

So, quit posturing without any logic in the cyberspace.

If the push comes to shove, so be it!

Neither you nor I can stop it!

Or are you the one who decides what Pakistan is to do?

Rather its you who is posturing without giving it a thought and without even knowning what the other person wroted. And what has to happen will happen neither you or me can stop it and somethings are understanble enough that will not require for one to be the leader of pakistan.

 

[IceCold]

Pakistan has a history of perpetrating a mass insurgency in Kashmir along with incitement on religious basis to apply pressure on India as well. So to pretend that this is a one way street with Pakistan being the sole recipient is inaccurate to say the least.

Having said that, is there any credible evidence which suggests that India is in fact planning on cutting off Pakistan's water supply in its entirety? I find that a bit hard to believe primarily because exacting a negative impact upon Pakistan's agricultural sector which happens to be located along the Indian border would result in a mass scale humanitarian disaster which would eventually spill over and cause chaos in India itself.

Before putting blames on pakistan, one has to acknowledge the fact that kashmiri freedom struggle was started in kashmir and not pakistan beacuse kashmiries were deprived of their basic right "FREEDOM". However pakistan did supported it, why because it was a disputed terrority with india killing hundreads of thousands of kashmiries every day, while the sole powers watching it, as afterall muslims were being killed so why to bother.
Secondly when you blaim pakistan for doing every bad thing, why do you forget that it was india that stated to spread terrorism in east pakistan, supported the militants there and broke pakistan a part. Was that not terrorism?
Now coming back to the original topic, has there been any credible evidence, well if it wouldnt be the case pakistan would have not gone to the international court to get involved in this case. You see of you read the indus treaty, according to one of its clause, i'm not sure i think its the third one which clearly illustrates that india could not any water from the western rivers, so building dams is in itself is an open violation of this treaty as a whole. And if india is violating the terms, it would be stupid to think that they are not doing to run pakistan dry or perhaps to blackmail it like one of the indian memebers too stated the same thing, "make pakistan accept the loc by pressuring it". Now how do you think that pressure will come at the first place unless india has something that could hold pakistan by its throat and militarly that is not possible, india has tried that already. Simply by saying that its hard to believe, will not change the reality that india is doing this for one sole purpose to hold pakistan down whenever and whereever india wants. Even if we agree for argument sake that india might not do it, fearing an inevitable human distaster, still it will give india enough leverage against pakistan to make pakistan do whatever india wishes.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

FIrst of all let me put it in simple english because you have a tendency to put words in other person's mouth which have never been said.
Now coming back to the original topic is it possible or not or whether i have any knowledge about it or not. The point is do you know for instance how was karakorum highway being built. Or did the God sent its army of engineers down to help us achieve our objectives in building it, was the mountains not being cut and it was made on one of the toughest terain where people like you could not have imagined about it being possible. Now about being feasible, first of all let me explain you what feasibility is, A feasibility is a report that is made a team of experts set up from both sides who study the actual ground reality and then base on it make an actual ground analysis, its then discussed keeping all views and opinions in mind, the cost analysis and much more then you and me sitting here can keep arguing on whether it is possible or not. That is the only reason why feasibility reports take years to complete and not day or months before projects of such huge magnitude could commence. Just because you say it is not possible because of the map drawn in your head from old times or i say it is by just looking at the map doesnt change the fact, that indeed it could be or indeed it could not be.But you cannot challenge my position on it because you say its not possible without having anykind of ground knowledge of whether it would be or not.The amount of knowledge that you claim to have, believe me its not even half that much of what you claim. And that is why i said that pakistan need to exercise all option including this one IF IT IS POSSIBLE
I've highlighted the part for you so you dont miss it this time and start putting words into my mouth which i never uttered.

Now coming on to the second part, the cost issue. Again you misquoted my post. I very clearly said that if and only if a solution of this sort is somewhat possible and india decides to carry on with drying pakistan out by building damns violating the treaty, we will have no option but to bare the cost no matter how hard or difficult it maybe, otherwise we may become another africa. How will we bare the cost, that is another debate and for another time, but nowhere did i ever mention that china will going to do so just to please us, rather its you who cannot understand and have a tendency to mold things up what bests suit your agenda for argument sake. I'll recomend that you do read my posts atleast twice before taking a meaning of your own out of it.
As for you comments for slaving my sorrows, lol i wouldnt want to comment on that, the reason is i like to debate not get personal with you though i can, still i prefer to keep the conversation decent and mature without getting involved into personal attacks which by the way you seem to be very fond off.




Was it me or you who said no one could a damn about it. Do you seriously believe that you can dry pakistan out and we will not utter a word, you are so seriously mistaken.



Now how did that fit into the equation. And by the way what problem are you referring to in the NWFP? Havent you go enough on this issue from Jana and others, that you now want me to indulge in it. Believe me i would be the last person you would ever want to get engage with on this issue. It would probally derail the thread which i donot want at the moment and which seems to be your primarly objective to close this thread, which is why you brought the issue in at the first place.



Rather its you who is posturing without giving it a thought and without even knowning what the other person wroted. And what has to happen will happen neither you or me can stop it and somethings are understanble enough that will not require for one to be the leader of pakistan.

I don't put English words into anyone's mouth.I merely interpret what they are trying to state. A world of a differnece!

Of course the Karakorum Highway is something that you feel is stupendous.

Khardung La (la means pass in Tibetan) (elevation 5359 m) is said to be the highest Highway in the world.

I have operated there and many other roads equally high and treacherous and while I marvel, it does not in any way startle me since the achievement of man is limitless. Therefore, the Karakorum Highway does not quite appeal to me as an impossible feat!! And you can thank the Chinese for it!

But then, one must also know engineering to realise that while cutting a road in treacherous and high terrain and thereafter maintaining it is a Herculean task, changing the course of a river is but a God alone achievement. If it were that easy, then many a river course would have been changed, not only from the military point of view, but also economic!!

Do refrain to teach me about Feasibility Reports and its techniques. It is so routine that it does not excite. In fact, it bores. Possibly, it is novel for you. It is routine and mundane for me. Spare me the childish schooboy stuff. Try it on others. Maybe it will throw others into raptures!

I have some knowledge of the terrain that would be there in the Northern Areas and so I am not totally deficit in knowledge and experience. I have operated in the very same areas that to you appears as something that only Angels dare to tread.

I am not a city bound man and a plainsman as you could possibly could be who is in throes of delight in seeing mountains and snow!! I hae seen so much of it that the very thought of mountains repels!!

It would be worthwhile to check on the antecedents from Neo or Asim.

As far as your second part is concerned, has India violated the Treaty? Why assume and start speculating of the impossible?

Indeed I said that who cares a damn. If the push comes to shove, so be it. What is wrong with that? If you want a war, what is India to do? Release doves and declare the Olympic games open?

What about Jana?

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Exactly my point! You may not want to starve pakistan but you do want to blackmail pakistan, bring it on her knees so that you could achieve whatever unjust demands you may put upfront of pakistan and that may not restrict to Kashmir only.

The arguments, disputes, confrontation between India and Pakistan will be centred around Kashmir and Kashmir alone.Period.

Yes, India will definitely use it in negotiation, but it is pertinent for you to understand that it will happen in negotiation table alone.

Whereever the strategic intererts of india will differ from pakistan and that by the way will always differ, india will cut off the water supply or perhaps threat to do so until pakistan accepts the demands.

Whatever confrontation between India and Pakistan wil be restricted to Kashmir alone, all conuntries have strategic differences and goals, these are usually solved through negotiations and tacit diplomacy, it will only be foolish of you to think that we shall go to war or starve you off because you have stategic differences.

So do you really believe that we will actually let india do such a thing hold pakistan by its throat and strangle it. You are so seriously mistaken. Its better to die and bring you (india) with us rather to live at your mercy. Think on these lines as well.

It dosen't matter what you or I think but what establishments across both sides think. Saner minds will use it for negotiations and not resort to throat stangulation and paranoia as often happens in your dreams.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Before putting blames on pakistan, one has to acknowledge the fact that kashmiri freedom struggle was started in kashmir and not pakistan beacuse kashmiries were deprived of their basic right "FREEDOM". However pakistan did supported it, why because it was a disputed terrority with india killing hundreads of thousands of kashmiries every day, while the sole powers watching it, as afterall muslims were being killed so why to bother.

Are you a Kashmiri or are Pakistanis the sole gaurdians of freedom and liberation across the world. Don't show your holieer than thou attitude towards us. How are Pakistnis related to Kashmiris, why should you spend a major part of resource effort for them, are you blood brothers.As far as India sees it it is just an effort for landgrab thats it, if Kashmiris so desperately want freedom let themdirectly talk with us or fight with us, I don't see what Pakistan has to do with it. Heck after all the support you provide, still you have failed to provoke an insurgency in the likes of Aghanistan, Chechenya or Palestine. Personally I feel that Pakistan establishment is slowly realising that Kashmir issue is a no issue and is slowly giving it up , which can be seen by increasing negotiations on both sides.

I am an ethnic Tamil what makes India give me freedom and not to Kashmir, stop your insurgency and see how easily the situation wil return to normalcy. It is Paksitans support of millitancy that has led Kashmir people to such pathetic state. Convert LOC TO IB, do whatever you want with your side of Kashmir, annexe it , or give it freedom and let us just live side by side peacefully.

Secondly when you blaim pakistan for doing every bad thing, why do you forget that it was india that stated to spread terrorism in east pakistan, supported the militants there and broke pakistan a part

If only your stupid stooges in east pakistan could stop the influx of reugees who were putting an enormous strain on an already impoverished India then things could have been better. Also it is pertinent to understand that the days of cold war are over and it is important to shed the conflicts of the past in the dustbin and move on to the future.

Now coming back to the original topic, has there been any credible evidence, well if it wouldnt be the case pakistan would have not gone to the international court to get involved in this case. You see of you read the indus treaty, according to one of its clause, i'm not sure i think its the third one which clearly illustrates that india could not any water from the western rivers, so building dams is in itself is an open violation of this treaty as a whole. And if india is violating the terms, it would be stupid to think that they are not doing to run pakistan dry or perhaps to blackmail it like one of the indian memebers too stated the same thing, "make pakistan accept the loc by pressuring it". Now how do you think that pressure will come at the first place unless india has something that could hold pakistan by its throat and militarly that is not possible, india has tried that already. Simply by saying that its hard to believe, will not change the reality that india is doing this for one sole purpose to hold pakistan down whenever and whereever india wants. Even if we agree for argument sake that india might not do it, fearing an inevitable human distaster, still it will give india enough leverage against pakistan to make pakistan do whatever india wishes.

Who says no , yes maybe India is strying to divert water or atleast building the capabilities to do so if necessary, but does not translate into cuttin of the supply entirely. Do you want me to believe that had the situation been opposite ie Paksiatn had control over water then they would have been saints, wake up. India also plays its cards as Pakistan does that is the reality of geopolitics, the diference between your view and my view is that ou believe in evil India that will starve your fellow country men and I am a pragmatist who sees that it is an issue that will lead to the eventual settlement of Kashmir issue leading to peace and stability between both of us, we lived together for centuries why do we need to let Kashmir come in our way of peace and stability rightly playing in to the hands of vested interests