RSS: No need for secularism in India; colour of flag should be turned saffron as tricolour injects c

[jamahir]

Quite remarkable worthy of praise especially comparing to non-progressive India as per you.

well...

no invention from India in 60 years: n. r. narayana murthy

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am the last person who would take up the case of RSS folks as what the hell I am not even their target audience not being of the religion they pander to but all the same here I go:

The practice of secularism in India is way different from it's intended definition which was separation of Religion and state. The different political parties pander to their respective community - indeed some have their sole identity as community specific party. We don't live in a country we wish for - If people see one community being pandered to then it is inevitable it will lead to some politician pandering the other community thus igniting a race of sorts and when countered the refrain would be They did it first.

Once the Pandora's Box has been opened by Rajiv Gandhi as has been rightly pointed out by @Bang Galore in his posts - this was bound to happen and by this I mean Hindu Resurgence in response to Muslim appeasement. You might as well blame Gravity for the difference it would make.

Now let us get to Specifics - What exactly are RSS and the Bhaks are doing? - How harmful is it to Indian Unity? - Are the fears exaggerated?

RSS as a institution stands for following mission:

The Hindu culture is the life-breath of Hindusthan. It is therefore clear that if Hindusthan is to be protected, we should first nourish the Hindu culture. If the Hindu culture perishes in Hindusthan itself, and if the Hindu society ceases to exist, it will hardly be appropriate to refer to the mere geographical entity that remains as Hindusthan. Mere geographical lumps do not make a nation.The entire society should be in such a vigilant and organized condition that no one would dare to cast an evil eye on any of our points of honour.

Strength, it should be remembered, comes only through organization. It is therefore the duty of every Hindu to do his best to consolidate the Hindu society. The Sangh is just carrying out this supreme task.The present fate of the country cannot be changed unless lakhs of young men dedicate their entire lifetime for that cause. To mould the minds of our youth towards that end is the supreme aim of the Sangh.

Vision and Mission

I agree they speak of Hindu resurgence - but where is the Muslim denigration? Or Sir do you believe one accompanies the other? If that is the case then all Muslim Institutions have been guilty of the same crime.

In practice though - fears stem from what would a Hindu who is conscious of his rights as a equal citizen of India and would not consent to mockery of his religion (slaughter of cows which are equivalent to a goddess) and practices do? This is in sharp contradiction to definition of secularism but not the way it has been practiced in India. This is where the real world and the text book world collide. As long as Muslims were allowed to get away with it - that was fine in the name of protection of Minority rights but allowing Hindus to impose their will would result in chaos and would render many parts of our constitution which protects our basic freedoms.

In short Hindus asserting their will make India a Hindu country not a secular one - this is the fear and to a large extent it is justifiable

Their are two solutions in my humble opinion:

1. Practice Secularism in it's true spirit which entail

a. Scrapping all religion specific laws including various Hindu and Muslim inheritance and Marriage acts. Implementation of Uniform civil code.
b. Ban all religion specific parties
c. Ensure absolute freedom of speech which allows anyone to eat anything anywhere - anyone to say anything including things which may be insulting to other religions.
d. No special benefits and affirmative action.

2. Scrap Secularism which would entail

a. All communities have their own laws specific to their religion
b. Every religion specific community has a proportional share of govt resources, jobs, seats in schools and colleges, armed forces etc. No merit system inter-religion.
c. Extensive negative lists banning everything which might offend any community - no rights to privacy, speech, eating etc

Regards

Without going into detail, it should be obvious that I stand firmly for your solution 1, and within that, for (a), (b) and (c), not for (d). I believe that Dalits should get reservations of educational seats for as long as it takes, in response to the centuries of harsh oppression that they have faced. NO other caste should get reservations; what is happening today is a cheap mockery of affirmative action. It is simply what the communists used to call rent-seeking, a term that has become mainstream.

 

[Spectre]

Without going into detail, it should be obvious that I stand firmly for your solution 1, and within that, for (a), (b) and (c), not for (d). I believe that Dalits should get reservations of educational seats for as long as it takes, in response to the centuries of harsh oppression that they have faced. NO other caste should get reservations; what is happening today is a cheap mockery of affirmative action. It is simply what the communists used to call rent-seeking, a term that has become mainstream.

Thank you - I am a Dalit and I have vehemently argued for their case here in PDF against folks who tend to rationalize or straight out deny oppression by quoting some scripture or the other but reservation is more like sweet poison for Dalits - it serve the cause of only some select few from our community who are best placed to take advantage and are useless for vast majority.

Reservations instead of caste based should be an economical one - would also cover majority of deserving Dalits and at same time excluding those who don't need it but still hog all the benefits.

Regards

 

[jamahir]

The uniformity of language, the hunting in packs, the uniform vulgarity and propensity to cast aspersions on everyone else's patriotism. I teach nowadays. It isn't difficult to work out plagiarised or homogenised habits.

rightly said.

on almost daily basis, i have these obscenities surround me or even it not, chatter among themselves as if they are truly some intellectual community, but all they spread is hatred and blood lust.

and their language is so superficial with no attempt towards deeper things.

not one of them has ever opened a thread to talk about how to solve india's very real and many problems, not least the farmer suicides

 

[Joe Shearer]

Thank you - I am a Dalit and I have vehemently argued for their case here in PDF against folks who tend to rationalize or straight out deny oppression by quoting some scripture or the other but reservation is more like sweet poison for Dalits - it serve the cause of only some select few from our community who are best placed to take advantage and are useless for vast majority.

Reservations instead of caste based should be an economical one - would also cover majority of deserving Dalits and at same time excluding those who don't need it but still hog all the benefits.

Regards

Sorry, I don't agree. I think the process of compensation has to go far, far deeper than has happened.

I know what you are referring to, the monopolisation of affirmative action benefits by a minuscule minority among the Dalits, but there was a paper written by my daughter once, which really shook up my thinking.

When a Dalit family gets benefits and prospers, their instinctive reaching for sheltering procedures and processes wanes over time. There are examples of three generations - unfortunately there is insufficient data to see how long this might last as a firm trend. There is in any case statistically not significant evidence that by the third or fourth generation, Dalits start wishing that they were not Dalits, socially, as they become not Dalits economically. There is yet not significant evidence that these families then start shifting away from seeking protection to work in fields where they actually are in a position to extend protection. It is then that their stranglehold on reservation benefits is relaxed, and that some of the benefits trickle down to the rest of the unfortunately isolated Dalits.

 

[Spectre]

rightly said.

on almost daily basis, i have these obscenities surround me or even it not, chatter among themselves as if they are truly some intellectual community, but all they spread is hatred and blood lust.

and their language is so superficial with no attempt towards deeper things.

not one of them has ever opened a thread to talk about how to solve india's very real and many problems, not least the farmer suicides

Don't blame them - the existing narrative and conditions promotes such thought process.

Farmer Suicides? This forum is a platform to get even with our neighbors for most of us - any way what relevance does farmer suicides hold for those who can access internet?

Farmer suicides are a very real problem but don't think anyone cares about them except for making political points in election season. Unless a problem affects us directly often we often brush it off in a case of selective amnesia. In any developing and aspirational society you would see a similar problem. Unless a society is socialist or developed - poor are the least of the problems to the ones who are still fighting for a better status which covers most of us who are on PDF.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And all inventions by Gadaffi.

What was that utterly stupid remark about?

Quite remarkable worthy of praise especially comparing to non-progressive India as per you.

Since you raised a stupid point, and got a clearly articulated and well presented slap in the face, don't you think that you could spare us your schoolboy wit and your emoticons? At least for a week?

 

[ranjeet]

I am the last person who would take up the case of RSS folks as what the hell I am not even their target audience not being of the religion they pander to but all the same here I go:

The practice of secularism in India is way different from it's intended definition which was separation of Religion and state. The different political parties pander to their respective community - indeed some have their sole identity as community specific party. We don't live in a country we wish for - If people see one community being pandered to then it is inevitable it will lead to some politician pandering the other community thus igniting a race of sorts and when countered the refrain would be They did it first.

Once the Pandora's Box has been opened by Rajiv Gandhi as has been rightly pointed out by @Bang Galore in his posts - this was bound to happen and by this I mean Hindu Resurgence in response to Muslim appeasement. You might as well blame Gravity for the difference it would make.

Now let us get to Specifics - What exactly are RSS and the Bhaks are doing? - How harmful is it to Indian Unity? - Are the fears exaggerated?

RSS as a institution stands for following mission:

The Hindu culture is the life-breath of Hindusthan. It is therefore clear that if Hindusthan is to be protected, we should first nourish the Hindu culture. If the Hindu culture perishes in Hindusthan itself, and if the Hindu society ceases to exist, it will hardly be appropriate to refer to the mere geographical entity that remains as Hindusthan. Mere geographical lumps do not make a nation.The entire society should be in such a vigilant and organized condition that no one would dare to cast an evil eye on any of our points of honour.

Strength, it should be remembered, comes only through organization. It is therefore the duty of every Hindu to do his best to consolidate the Hindu society. The Sangh is just carrying out this supreme task.The present fate of the country cannot be changed unless lakhs of young men dedicate their entire lifetime for that cause. To mould the minds of our youth towards that end is the supreme aim of the Sangh.

Vision and Mission

I agree they speak of Hindu resurgence - but where is the Muslim denigration? Or Sir do you believe one accompanies the other? If that is the case then all Muslim Institutions have been guilty of the same crime.

In practice though - fears stem from what would a Hindu who is conscious of his rights as a equal citizen of India and would not consent to mockery of his religion (slaughter of cows which are equivalent to a goddess) and practices do? This is in sharp contradiction to definition of secularism but not the way it has been practiced in India. This is where the real world and the text book world collide. As long as Muslims were allowed to get away with it - that was fine in the name of protection of Minority rights but allowing Hindus to impose their will would result in chaos and would render many parts of our constitution which protects our basic freedoms.

In short Hindus asserting their will make India a Hindu country not a secular one - this is the fear and to a large extent it is justifiable

Their are two solutions in my humble opinion:

1. Practice Secularism in it's true spirit which entail

a. Scrapping all religion specific laws including various Hindu and Muslim inheritance and Marriage acts. Implementation of Uniform civil code.
b. Ban all religion specific parties
c. Ensure absolute freedom of basic rights which allows anyone to eat anything anywhere - anyone to say anything including things which may be insulting to other religions.
d. No special benefits and affirmative action.

2. Scrap Secularism which would entail

a. All communities have their own laws specific to their religion
b. Every religion specific community has a proportional share of govt resources, jobs, seats in schools and colleges, armed forces etc. No merit system inter-religion.
c. Extensive negative lists banning everything which might offend any community - no rights to privacy, speech, eating etc

Regards

Practice Secularism in it's true spirit? what's wrong with the way it was practiced so far? If it wasn't followed the way it was meant to be then who is the culprit? Why no one raised their voice against it?

 

[Spectre]

Sorry, I don't agree. I think the process of compensation has to go far, far deeper than has happened.

I know what you are referring to, the monopolisation of affirmative action benefits by a minuscule minority among the Dalits, but there was a paper written by my daughter once, which really shook up my thinking.

When a Dalit family gets benefits and prospers, their instinctive reaching for sheltering procedures and processes wanes over time. There are examples of three generations - unfortunately there is insufficient data to see how long this might last as a firm trend. There is in any case statistically not significant evidence that by the third or fourth generation, Dalits start wishing that they were not Dalits, socially, as they become not Dalits economically. There is yet not significant evidence that these families then start shifting away from seeking protection to work in fields where they actually are in a position to extend protection. It is then that their stranglehold on reservation benefits is relaxed, and that some of the benefits trickle down to the rest of the unfortunately isolated Dalits.

I would hold my comments as psychologically your posts make sense but it would take another few decades to verify whether affirmative action has actually worked in India or not - however the present indicators suggest it has not.

At present the hoarding and self -protective mentality is still there even in third generation beneficiaries.

I would like to quote a conclusion of a 2010 study of 16 of India’s biggest states which looked at the effect on poverty from 1960 to 2000 here

For scheduled tribes”, who are conveniently crowded near one another on electoral maps, greater political clout has indeed led to a small drop in poverty. But for the “scheduled castes”, by contrast, it has made absolutely no difference at all.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w16509.pdf

 

[Joe Shearer]

Practice Secularism in it's true spirit? what's wrong with the way it was practiced so far? If it wasn't followed the way it was meant to be then who is the culprit? Why no one raised their voice against it?

You are being unfair.

It was a distorted version of secularism that we followed. Ironically considering the loathsome things that the British did to us, our version of 'secularism' resembles nothing so closely as British Multiculturalism. It was not an exclusion of every religion from affairs of state; it was the staggering opposite, an inclusion of religion, all religions, into every walk of life, all walks of time.

Who was the culprit? It pains me to say this, because I am not a Gandhi- basher, but it was the One Nation Theory that Gandhi started up. It obviously failed, for reasons that I shall not go into.

As far as no one raising their voices is concerned, you weren't listening. Trust me on that. The raised voices were not those of the street; I hate to point out that that is the only raised voice that the Sangh Parivar listens to.

 

[Spectre]

Practice Secularism in it's true spirit? what's wrong with the way it was practiced so far? If it wasn't followed the way it was meant to be then who is the culprit? Why no one raised their voice against it?

What's wrong is that it is creating problems - neither Hindus are happy nor Muslims both feel alienated as both believe that the other party is the one which being appeased.

Secularism means a state should totally separate itself from religion and all laws much be religion neutral.

Culprit are the people who seek to benefit from the discontent and hence strive to keep the discontent alive by making sure scope for such discontent remains in form of religion specific laws and policies.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would hold my comments as psychologically your posts make sense but it would take another few decades to verify whether affirmative action has actually worked in India or not - however the present indicators suggest it has not.

At present the hoarding and self -protective mentality is still there even in third generation beneficiaries.

I would like to quote a conclusion of a 2010 study of 16 of India’s biggest states which looked at the effect on poverty from 1960 to 2000 here

For scheduled tribes”, who are conveniently crowded near one another on electoral maps, greater political clout has indeed led to a small drop in poverty. But for the “scheduled castes”, by contrast, it has made absolutely no difference at all.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w16509.pdf

I agree, and my best educated guess is that we are looking at a period of six generations or more - about 180 years - for impact to show up.

Your point about the Scheduled Tribes is perfectly good, for the precise same reason that you mentioned (or was it the study), the homogeneity of the tribe and its geographical concentration. Now, regarding the SC, I believe that a micro-plan needs to be developed for each micro-climate. The results will show up only once we abandon the one-size-fits-all strategy.

 

[danger007]

Thank you - I am a Dalit and I have vehemently argued for their case here in PDF against folks who tend to rationalize or straight out deny oppression by quoting some scripture or the other but reservation is more like sweet poison for Dalits - it serve the cause of only some select few from our community who are best placed to take advantage and are useless for vast majority.

Reservations instead of caste based should be an economical one - would also cover majority of deserving Dalits and at same time excluding those who don't need it but still hog all the benefits.

Regards

are you sure about what you said????? Dalits will be nothing without those privileges... Even with SC ST atrocities act Dalits facing lot troubles than you see.... without Reservations dalits there will be no progress...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Have you followed our conversation before coming up with even more unwanted stupid remark?

I have, and you are trolling.

are you sure about what you said????? Dalits will be nothing without those privileges... Even with SC ST atrocities act Dalits facing lot troubles than you see.... without Reservations dalits there will be no progress...

I really don't agree that these affirmative actions should be withheld.

 

[danger007]

Atrocities Against Dalits High in Tamil Nadu, Claims NCSC -The New Indian Express