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Russia Admits China Illegally Copied Its Fighter

I understand the point you guys are making, that China does not want to make their latest greatest fighter J-10 look bad by losing to J-11. But the fact of the matter is this: the latest European fighters have delta wings with canards. These aircraft were specifically designed during the later part of the cold war to kill Flankers and Mig-29s easily. Therefore it makes sense to me that J-10, with a similar planform, will perform similar to the "Euro-canards".
In any case no matter whether you believe the exercise result or not, nobody here knows whether J-10 or J-11 is the better fighter. So I don't see why some people are saying "J-11 is far better than J-10." :)
We know J-11 can fit a larger radar and much more payload/fuel than J-10. I believe this is where its advantage lies, not in maneuverability.

Fennacus could you give your opinion on this?

To the best of my knowledge, the J-11B variant is about 1.5 times as capable as the J-10A (from an interview I read with one of the engineers).

As for the J-10B variant, it's simply way too early to draw any comparisons. I suppose it all depends on how radical the new design will be.
 
Good points Mark Sien. I too agree that there are credible arguments that can be made for purchasing J-11s, but I think that the arguments against currently far outweigh the arguments for, mainly due to the fact that most of our needs will be met by current purchases and plannings and that we can not afford to liberally spend on defence at this point.
Well the key merits for any Flanker-series fighter would be its range and payload advantages in comparison to J-10 & JF-17.

There is no doubt that Pakistan is looking to strengthen its offensive strike capability. There are news reports about the military developing longer-range ballistic missiles as well as MIRV. Other than the Ra'ad ALCM, we may also have a parallel joint-program with Turkey. We also have a PGB program similar to JDAM as well as precision-guided glide-bomb similar to the South African Denel Raptor-series. I expect the next step will include a missile similar to the Sagem AASM, probably using the Brazilian MAR-1 ARM as a baseline (with a different seeker).

Pakistan is expanding its "circle of threats" quite a bit, and is without a doubt taking into account the actions of actors of 'other regions'. The other issue is India's naval capacity, and the longer range fighters we will need to tackle the threat. We will need longer-range fighters, and given the string of potential commonality, the Flanker-series fits the bill best.

The main question is, if effort on Russia was to be applied, would Pakistan be better off just getting Su-35BM than doing a 3rd-party thing with J-11B?
 
The title of this thread is kind of interesting. Actually, it should be 'China admits she illegally copied a Russian fighter'.

The title of the thread is the heading of the original article. I didn't want to change it because I didn't want to present a biased opinion, but I get your point.

Pakistan is expanding its "circle of threats" quite a bit, and is without a doubt taking into account the actions of actors of 'other regions'. The other issue is India's naval capacity, and the longer range fighters we will need to tackle the threat. We will need longer-range fighters, and given the string of potential commonality, the Flanker-series fits the bill best.

Interesting points. I can understand the increased emphasis on missile development, as missiles provide the easiest way to build up a 'minimum deterrance policy' arsenal. I also agree with you on the capabilities the Flanker-series will provide the PAF, but the simple question is, is building and preparing for an unlikely hypothetical threat in the best interest of the country as we speak?

Also, I agree with the newer threat situation, but surely a handful of J-11s will be no match for the nations in the larger 'circle of threat', as you put it. The best way to tackle that scenario is to plan for long term strengthening of the Armed Forces and their self-reliance coupled with dazzling diplomacy in the short term, in other words, don't provoke the big boys until we are old enough. (It is what Sun Tzu would have done).
 
Interesting points. I can understand the increased emphasis on missile development, as missiles provide the easiest way to build up a 'minimum deterrance policy' arsenal. I also agree with you on the capabilities the Flanker-series will provide the PAF, but the simple question is, is building and preparing for an unlikely hypothetical threat in the best interest of the country as we speak?

Also, I agree with the newer threat situation, but surely a handful of J-11s will be no match for the nations in the larger 'circle of threat', as you put it. The best way to tackle that scenario is to plan for long term strengthening of the Armed Forces and their self-reliance coupled with dazzling diplomacy in the short term, in other words, don't provoke the big boys until we are old enough. (It is what Sun Tzu would have done).
Well it is the issue of actively protecting our assets that may require fighters with more range and payload. Sending a Flanker on a strike mission would inflict more damage than a JF-17, regardless of where it is being sent. It isn't a matter of handful, we may have 2 squadrons or even 4, it is nonetheless a powerful force multiplier.
 
the single enjined j10 are far more agile, less maintanence demanding then j11b.. moreover the j10 might be getting critical avionics of the same class as installed by china in its j11b.

j10 would not only provide us with a good aircraft but also we can induct more j10 then j11,, so quantitative edge might be narrowed aswell.paf would be in a better place to absorb new batches of fc20 with a proir infrastructure
.
so why go for j11 fighter if the only pro is more weight carriage.. it can be nullified by our missiles.
.

jf17 might endup equal to grippen, so why waste money on a different and nonindigenous programme.
.
j10 has yet to prove itself..
.
had the paf gotten the mirages in 90s or ordered a western 4.5 gen like rafale, these questions about paf capability would have not taken place.

upgraded f16 and new block f16 sound great but our relations with u.s are very unpredictable...so i would definately try to induct quickly a different western platform of the same if not better class i.e rafale[eurofighter is way expensive]
.
 
the single enjined j10 are far more agile, less maintanence demanding then j11b.. moreover the j10 might be getting critical avionics of the same class as installed by china in its j11b.

j10 would not only provide us with a good aircraft but also we can induct more j10 then j11,, so quantitative edge might be narrowed aswell.paf would be in a better place to absorb new batches of fc20 with a proir infrastructure
.
so why go for j11 fighter if the only pro is more weight carriage.. it can be nullified by our missiles.
.

jf17 might endup equal to grippen, so why waste money on a different and nonindigenous programme.
.
j10 has yet to prove itself..
.
had the paf gotten the mirages in 90s or ordered a western 4.5 gen like rafale, these questions about paf capability would have not taken place.

upgraded f16 and new block f16 sound great but our relations with u.s are very unpredictable...so i would definately try to induct quickly a different western platform of the same if not better class i.e rafale[eurofighter is way expensive]
.

ANTIBODY;sir
well, the thread is not about our likes or dislikes?:tsk::hitwall:
1.jf17 might endup equal to grippen
Nothing is not sure ,if its is based on the westrn or euorpean equipments!;)
2.j10 has yet to prove itself..
no logic sir,i.e rafale stands same as J-10s, not proven?:lol:

had the paf gotten the mirages in 90s or ordered a western 4.5 gen like rafale, these questions about paf capability would have not taken place

i guss what had happened durring in late 90's (US + EU SANCTIONS) had realy open the eyes of whole of the pakistani nation, how CHINA helped us in the times when INDIAN FORCES , were on the front lines for 1 year long stand off, pakistan got immediate power backup, in the form of F-7PGS supplied by china?:agree::angry:
westrn & US sources arent good enough, for PAF to rely on , having "the mirages in 90s or ordered a western 4.5 gen like rafale" , PAF would be bankrupted till now?:tsk::lol:
 
j10 would not only provide us with a good aircraft but also we can induct more j10 then j11,, so quantitative edge might be narrowed aswell.paf would be in a better place to absorb new batches of fc20 with a proir infrastructure
.
so why go for j11 fighter if the only pro is more weight carriage.. it can be nullified by our missiles.
Agreed on both these points. I do not understand why PAF needs a jet with the range of J-11. It would be useful in maritime strike ops, but the J-10 can do the same job with an aerial refueller. Mark I agree that 2-4 squadrons of Flankers would be a powerful force multiplier, but 2-4 more aerial refuellers would significantly increase the range of the entire PAF fleet.
Besides, surely small stealthy UCAVs and cruise missiles will replace deep strike missions anyway.

had the paf gotten the mirages in 90s or ordered a western 4.5 gen like rafale, these questions about paf capability would have not taken place.
How many JF should PAC build, what modifications should they make, what weaponry, sensors, avionics should they integrate and who should Pakistan export them to?
Had the PAF got Mirage 2000 or ordered Rafale, these questions about Pakistan's capability would not have taken place. :)
 
Point blank we need the j-11 if we can get it cuz honestly speaking i really dont see us getting any thing else from any other nation atleast for a while ! no one is willing to sell to us plus the lack of funds is also a issue perhaps as with most of u i agree fully on getting 2-4 sqd of j-11's i think its or best bet for now in the near future we can think about or dream about 5 th gen fighters i think we all need to come to reality just my thought !
 
Agreed on both these points. I do not understand why PAF needs a jet with the range of J-11. It would be useful in maritime strike ops, but the J-10 can do the same job with an aerial refueller. Mark I agree that 2-4 squadrons of Flankers would be a powerful force multiplier, but 2-4 more aerial refuellers would significantly increase the range of the entire PAF fleet.
Besides, surely small stealthy UCAVs and cruise missiles will replace deep strike missions anyway.


How many JF should PAC build, what modifications should they make, what weaponry, sensors, avionics should they integrate and who should Pakistan export them to?
Had the PAF got Mirage 2000 or ordered Rafale, these questions about Pakistan's capability would not have taken place. :)



Had the PAF got Mirage 2000 or ordered Rafale, these questions about Pakistan's capability would not have taken place.

:crazy::lol: how about this that, Had the PAF got Mirage 2000 or ordered Rafale, & that order never being delivered?
PAF bankrupt!:tsk::lol::rofl:
same as PAF , ordered F16's in late 90's , & then offerred WHEAT?:rofl:
 
Had the PAF got Mirage 2000 or ordered Rafale, these questions about Pakistan's capability would not have taken place.

:crazy::lol: how about this that, Had the PAF got Mirage 2000 or ordered Rafale, & that order never being delivered?
PAF bankrupt!:tsk::lol::rofl:
same as PAF , ordered F16's in late 90's , & then offerred WHEAT?:rofl:


Hi,

What you do is learn from previous mistakes---add a clasue or two in this contract---payment starts with the delivery of first batch of planes and equipment---there is no payment upfront---there is no down payment upfront---no delivery no money---if no delivery by a certain date---the manufacturer would pay a penalty---don't ever sign the contract with the foreign government again---always sign the contract with the manufacturer.

I have written so many times about this scenario---sanctions will happen----they are a part of life--but there are ways to combat them. And the above mentioned way is the only way that foreign companies understand your language.
 
payment starts with the delivery of first batch of planes and equipment---there is no payment upfront---there is no down payment upfront---no delivery no money---if no delivery by a certain date---the manufacturer would pay a penalty---don't ever sign the contract with the foreign government again---always sign the contract with the manufacturer.

Adding these terms will increase the overall price of any deal. You get what you pay for, and here you are getting quite a lot of solidity in the deal. Some of the points above could be deal-breakers for the companies as certain delays and glitches are unforeseeable in business and engineering (for example, "if no delivery by a certain date, the manufacturer would pay a penalty"). Also, in case of friendly nations like China, the "always sign the contract with the manufacturer" point will most definitely cost more, as the government will be able provide 'friendship prices' and other flexibility if directly involved in the deal. But I agree that some of the points you mentioned should definitely be demanded, regardless of their cost (for example, "no delivery no money").
 
Hi,

What you do is learn from previous mistakes---add a clasue or two in this contract---payment starts with the delivery of first batch of planes and equipment---there is no payment upfront---there is no down payment upfront---no delivery no money---if no delivery by a certain date---the manufacturer would pay a penalty---don't ever sign the contract with the foreign government again---always sign the contract with the manufacturer.

I have written so many times about this scenario---sanctions will happen----they are a part of life--but there are ways to combat them. And the above mentioned way is the only way that foreign companies understand your language.[/QUOT]

GlobalSecurity.org

The sale of F-16s to Pakistan became a transformative element of the US-Pakistan bilateral relationship. In the early 1980s, the U.S. government initially agreed to sell Pakistan 111 F-16 aircraft. This decision was influenced by the close partnership with Pakistan during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The mainstay of the air force was the F-16 fighter.

F-16 Acquisition - Peace Gate

In 1985 the US Congress passed the Presslar Amendment, named for Larry Presslar, the Senator from South Dakota, to cut off aid and military sales to Pakistan if the President could not certify that Pakistan did not possess a nuclear explosive device. The Reagan administration supported the amendment. In fact, they helped write it. Even the Government of Pakistan did not object to the amendment because they claimed they were not pursuing a nuclear option. The Presslar amendment was considered a compromise. The Senator from California, Senator Alan Cranston, had another amendment that immediately would have cut off aid to Pakistan, withoutPresidential certification, because he believed Pakistan already possessed the materials needed to assemble a nuclear bomb.

In October of 1990, nearly 5 years after the Pressler amendment became law, President (George Herbert Walker) Bush was unable to certify that Pakistan was not in possession of a nuclear explosive device. As a result, all U.S. direct aid and military sales were terminated. At the time of the aid cutoff, Pakistan was attempting to purchase a fleet of F–16’s from the United States. Because of the enforcement of the Pressler amendment, delivery of the aircraft — aircraft that can carry and drop a nuclear bomb - never took place.

The Pressler sanctions led to a decade-long suspension of security assistance to Pakistan and a "deficit of trust" between the two countries. The Pakistan Air Force was weakened by the Pressler amendment, which stalled delivery of F*16 aircraft. The 28 brand-new F-16s were flown directly from the Fort Worth factory to the “bone yard” at Davis Monthan Air Force Base for storage. The sale of 40 F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft under the Peace Gate program to Pakistan not only encompassed a variety of geo-political, economic and military consequences for the country itself but subsequently creates unique challenges for USAF foreign military sales program managers. The suspension of US security assistance programs required under Pressler meant the suspension and eventual cancellation of an additional sale of F-16 aircraft that would have augmented the 40 F-16s Pakistan purchased in 1982. That cancellation has been viewed as a symbol of the collapse of the American relationship during the 1990s, a period which remains highly emotional for many Pakistanis.

Despite claiming to have a strong policy on nuclear nonproliferation, the Clinton administration consistently had shown hostility toward the Pressler amendment — the only nuclear nonproliferation law with teeth. In the fall of 1993, the Clinton administration called for the repeal of the Pressler amendment, but backed off after pressure from Members of Congress. The Clinton administration in 2004 began to float a new proposal to grant a one-time waiver of the Pressler amendment to allow for the delivery of at least 22 of the F–16 aircraft sought by Pakistan. The administration’s proposal was originally unconditional, but was later modified with a condition that Pakistan promise to cap its nuclear weapons arsenal.

The Brown amendment, signed into law in January 1996, was designed to relieve some of the pressures created by the Pressler sanctions, which had crippled parts of the Pakistani military, particularly the Air Force. The Brown amendment allows nearly $370 million of previously embargoed arms and spare parts to be delivered to Pakistan. It also permitted limited military assistance for the purposes of counter-terrorism, peacekeeping, anti-narcotics efforts, and some military training. The Clinton administration hoped to sell these aircraft to a third country so that Pakistan can be repaid for the planes. In December 1998, President Clinton agreed the U.S. would repay Pakistan in cash and benefits the $463.7 million they had spent on the aircraft deal.

F-16 Acquisition - Peace Drive

The centerpiece of the security assistance relationship was the F-16 Peace Drive Aircraft Program. For Pakistan, the F-16 is a symbol of national pride and although the program began in the 1980s, F-16s continued to hold a special place in the U.S.-Pakistani security relationship. On 28 June 2005, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion. In 2006 the governments of Pakistan and the United States signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) agreeing to the purchase of 18 Block 52 F-16s. The LOA provides Pakistan an option for an additional 18 aircraft. On December 11th, 2006 the U.S. government has awarded an initial $78 million as part of a $144 million contract to Lockheed Martin for long-lead tasks related to the production of 18 new Advanced Block 52 F-16 aircraft for Pakistan. The final Pakistan F-16 under this contract will be delivered in 2010.

Pakistan had originally planned a total purchase valued at $5.1 billion, almost all of it in national funds. The 2005 Kashmir earthquake and subsequent financial constraints caused Pakistan to reduce the number of new planes it wanted to purchase from 36 to 18, which lowered the overall value of the deal to approximately $3.1 billion. The 18 new planes are valued at $1.4 billion, with the remainder of the $3.1 billion dedicated to associated munitions (valued at approximately $641 million) and 46 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits for Pakistan's existing F-16 fleet (estimated to cost $891 million). Additionally, the United States has provided Pakistan with 14 F-16s designated as Excess Defense Articles (EDA).

The entire F-16 program for Pakistan includes the purchase of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft, Mid-Life Update [MLU] for 46 aircraft, and a munitions package that includes AMRAAM, JDAM, and Enhanced Paveway guidance kits. On 28 June 2006, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification kits as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion.

As of late 2008 Pakistan operated forty-six F-16A/B aircraft. Thirty-two of these aircraft remain from the original forty aircraft that Pakistan bought in the 1980s. Since 2005, the USAF had transferred fourteen Excess Defense Article (EDA) F-16A/B aircraft to Pakistan. The United States Air Force (USAF) successfully delivered four excess defense article (EDA) F-16B aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force at Mushaf Air Base in Pakistan on June 28, 2008. Five USAF pilots ferried the aircraft from Hill Air Force Base. The four EDA aircraft are part of a larger package of 14 aircraft. With this delivery, the USAF had transferred eight aircraft to Pakistan. Another four EDA F-16 aircraft arrived in Pakistan on 28 July 2008. The final two aircraft are part of the Pakistan Mid-Life Update program and would arrive in Pakistan in December 2011.

The Pakistan F-16 program is composed of three Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOAs). The first LOA providing for the production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: four aircraft to be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011. The second LOA provides for munitions and includes: five hundred AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); seven hundred and fifty Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs; seven hundred BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs; five hundred Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits; sixteen hundred Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit (EGBU) kits; and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment. These weapons will be available for delivery to Pakistan beginning in June 2010. The third LOA provides for the Mid-Life Update (MLU) of their current fleet of forty-six aircraft. The Pakistan MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide the Pakistan Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring.


F-16s provide a critical counterterrorism capability to Pakistan and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has made extensive use of its aging F-16 fleet to support Pakistan Army operations in the Swat Valley and in the Bajaur Agency of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). According to information furnished to us by the Pakistan Embassy in Washington, the PAF flew 93 sorties in August 2008 in operations against the Taliban. However, their current model F-16 can be used for close air support missions only in daylight and good visibility.

Published on Saturday, March 26, 2005 by CommonDreams.org
Who's the Sucker? US Prepares to Sell F-16s to Pakistan

by Christopher Brauchli

Everyone complains of his memory and no one complains of his judgment.
- François, Duc de La Rochefoucauld, Sentences and Moral Maxims
:tsk:

A sucker is born every minute. It may not always be obvious who the sucker is. Pakistan is negotiating with the United States to buy some airplanes. Apparently there is no one left in Pakistan who remembers the 1990s. The United States may be considering selling airplanes to Pakistan. Apparently there is no one left in the administration who remembers Pakistan’s ties to terrorists, the sale of nuclear secrets to Iran and other troubling facts about that country.

Back in the ‘80s and ‘90s the United States had some really keen airplanes that Pakistan wanted to buy to use if it got into a fight with India. Pakistan paid the United States $650 million for 25 F-16 fighter planes. Then a bad thing happened. Someone remembered the Pressler Amendment that said the planes could only be sold to Pakistan if the president could certify that Pakistan was not developing nuclear weapons. It was, and the president did not issue the certification. The planes were kept by the United States.

That left the United States with 25 F-16 fighter planes for which it had no use and $650 million for which Pakistan had a use. Instead of writing a refund check to Pakistan, the United States kept the money and tried to get money to repay Pakistan by making deals with other countries. It sold nine of the planes to Indonesia. Before it collected, however, President Suharto got mad because the U.S. was criticizing his human rights record. He cancelled the sale. That left the United States with 25 F-16 fighter planes for which it had no use and $650 million for which Pakistan had a use. A number of other sales or leases were attempted but none proved successful.

In March, 1998, Pakistan announced that it was going to sue the United States to recover the $650 million it had paid that the United States refused to return. It is unclear what defense the U.S. would have asserted had the case been filed. It wasn’t filed and at the end of 1998 the U.S. agreed to pay Pakistan $326.9 million in cash and $140 million in other kinds of compensation including $60 million in white wheat. (That is almost certainly one of the few disputes over $650 million not involving the purchase and sale of white wheat that has ever been settled by the delivery of white wheat.) Earlier, $157 million had been refunded to Pakistan and how the last many millions were to be paid was left up to future negotiations Anyone wanting to know how that came out will have to do his or her own research.

The Pakistanis are now back asking for seconds. Having been ripped off once before it’s a surprise they are back. Given Pakistan’s record it’s a surprise we’d do business with it again and a short while ago it looked as though we would not. In November of 2004 at a White House conference Deputy National Security Advisor Robert Blackwill was quoted as saying with respect to the sale of airplanes to Pakistan: “There’s nothing that we are aware of and at any level a decision has been made to supply F-16s to Pakistan.” Things can change in a hurry, especially when friendship trumps principle as it often does in the Bush administration.
On March 16, 2005, it was reported that during Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice’s visit to Pakistan, the issue of F-16 sales to Pakistan was sure to come up. Commenting on the upcoming visit, diplomats said that the ban that precluded the earlier sale might be dropped. The reason is apparently related to the fact that Pakistan and India now both have nuclear weapons. That being the case, there’s no reason not to sell Pakistan airplanes that can be used to deliver them since it would not have a destabilizing effect on the region. It wouldn’t be destabilizing because according to a report in the Wall Street Journal, the U.S. is also prepared to consider selling planes to India. If both countries have the ability to drop their nuclear weapons on each other the balance of power remains in perfect equilibrium. For that I suppose one should be grateful although it’s not clear why.

During Secretary Rice’s visit she said she looked forward to “the evolution of a democratic path toward elections in 2007.” Secretary Rice may be looking forward to it. It’s not clear that she and General Musharraf have the same view. The General may or may not be looking forward to it. What he is certainly looking forward to is the advent of some F-16s. He may get those before he has to decide whether to permit free elections. Time will tell. :)

Brauchli.56@post.harvard.edu
See his website at The Human Race & Other Sports
 
Point blank we need the j-11
:disagree: I keep reading posts that PAF "need the j-11", but I haven't read anybody say what it is needed for that the J-10 with good radars, aerial refuellers, AEW&C and cruise missiles cannot do. Just look at it:

2c19124010715045066f1d5ee5e4a010.jpg


I'm sorry, but the bloody thing is f***ing enormous. Considering how much of PAF's resources would be eaten, it would be a liability for the PAF not an asset. I can't believe there are Pakistanis seriously suggesting that PAF go ahead and buy this giant jet-powered target, it would be a prodigious waste of money that could be put to better use.

If PAF inducts anything that size, it should be nothing less than a stealth fighter. No not a "50% composites = stealth fighter" like LCA, I mean a proper stealth fighter.
 
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Hi Batmannow,

Thankyou very much for the post. The F 16 lovers had their heads up where there is no daylight.

If you read the mistakes made before and after the sanction were enforced---you would put the people who were responsible for it stand in front a wall---and face the music.

After reading the above article if the pakistanis cannot believe that PAF is responsible for chopping off their own legs----then the statement from someone holds true---" pakistanis are really thick headed people ". It showed a failure of PAF as pro-active analytical research entity whic do9es not have the ability to decide what aircraft to buy # 1 and # 2 not realizing the threat level faced by the country----which shows by their making a run to china in november last year to order FC 20.
 
:disagree: I keep reading posts that PAF "need the j-11", but I haven't read anybody say what it is needed for that the J-10 with good radars, aerial refuellers, AEW&C and cruise missiles cannot do. Just look at it:

2c19124010715045066f1d5ee5e4a010.jpg


I'm sorry, but the bloody thing is f***ing enormous. Considering how much of PAF's resources would be eaten, it would be a liability for the PAF not an asset. I can't believe there are Pakistanis seriously suggesting that PAF go ahead and buy this giant jet-powered target, it would be a prodigious waste of money that could be put to better use.

If PAF inducts anything that size, it should be nothing less than a stealth fighter. No not a "50% composites = stealth fighter" like LCA, I mean a proper stealth fighter.

no idea about PAFs priorities but THAT F****G ENORMOUS TARGET (AIRCRAFT) WILL BE FLYING IN NUMBERS GREATER THAN 500 IN CHINESE SKIES :enjoy:

:cheers:
 

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