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Featured Russia would be developing upgraded engines for Pakistan's JF-17 fighters

But experts on PDF always said it was an underrated engine.. pagal
First of all note that PDF experts are not PAF decision makers.
Most of them are not even related to aviation.
My previous comments were based on facts.
RD-33/RD-93 engine has evolved since early 80s.
The present RD-33/RD-93 engine is not underrated.
One of the important characteristics is its durability - it has low maintenance down time.
Most of the respected members comment about its power or thrust. Please appreciate that the engine produces ample power/thrust compare to other engines belonging to the same class. Moreover, it can be further enhance and improve. This process is ongoing. Not only up-gradation of core engine but also its accessories including fuel system components and gearbox.
PAF senior officers did acknowledge RD-93 satisfactory performance on various occasions.
Decision to establish an expensive overhauling facility for RD-93 is one of the indication that PAF is seriously considering to use this engine for a very long time.( ie 30+ years)
Now coming back to your comment. I will request senior moderator @The Eagle to look into the matter and do the needful.
 
First of all note that PDF experts are not PAF decision makers.
Most of them are not even related to aviation.
My previous comments were based on facts.
RD-33/RD-93 engine has evolved since early 80s.
The present RD-33/RD-93 engine is not underrated.
One of the important characteristics is its durability - it has low maintenance down time.
Most of the respected members comment about its power or thrust. Please appreciate that the engine produces ample power/thrust compare to other engines belonging to the same class. Moreover, it can be further enhance and improve. This process is ongoing. Not only up-gradation of core engine but also its accessories including fuel system components and gearbox.
PAF senior officers did acknowledge RD-93 satisfactory performance on various occasions.
Decision to establish an expensive overhauling facility for RD-93 is one of the indication that PAF is seriously considering to use this engine for a very long time.( ie 30+ years)
Now coming back to your comment. I will request senior moderator @The Eagle to look into the matter and do the needful.
Oh bhai....you have said everything that I am making fun of. I am in your camp. I was making fun of the people who think its an under rated poor engine
 
Since induction of JF-17 in PAF, it were Chinese dealing the procurement of RD-93 from Russia. Pakistan was not directly involved in those deals. However, recent events reveal some major shift. (1) Establishment of RD-93 engine overhauling facility at PAF Faisal and (2) strong rumors about RD-93 MA up-gradation. Top leadership is and was fully satisfied with the performance of RD-93 engines. Switching to some other engine is out of question. Possibility of RD-93 complete ToT is very high.
I don't really understand what would be the benefit of RD-93 TOT if Pakistan could not absorb it anyways. We have to be honest with ourselves ... Pakistan doesn't really have an indigenous gas turbine industry and is heavily unlikely going to develop gas turbines by itself. Even manufacturing engines with a license would already be extremely difficult given the present gas turbine infrastructure. As India found out the extremely hard way, building gas turbines is not simply throwing money at it.
Oh bhai....you have said everything that I am making fun of. I am in your camp. I was making fun of the people who think its an under rated poor engine
This is because these "experts" do not understand that different engines can have different thrust classes. For example, the RR EJ-200 has a thrust of 90 kN while the AL-31F has a thrust of 130 kN. Many people will right off the bat tell you the AL-31F is a more advanced engine based on the thrust alone :hitwall:. If you wanted to look at the engine's true quality, you should pay attention to its thrust to weight ratio, T4 temperature, specific fuel consumption, and MTBO/serviceability.
 
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I don't really understand what would be the benefit of RD-93 TOT if Pakistan could not absorb it anyways. We have to be honest with ourselves ... Pakistan doesn't really have an indigenous gas turbine industry and is heavily unlikely going to develop gas turbines by itself. Even manufacturing engines with a license would already be extremely difficult given the present gas turbine infrastructure. As India found out the extremely hard way, building gas turbines is not simply throwing money at it.

This is because these "experts" do not understand that different engines can have different thrust classes. For example, the RR EJ-200 has a thrust of 90 kN while the AL-31F has a thrust of 130 kN. Many people will right off the bat tell you the AL-31F is a more advanced engine based on the thrust alone :hitwall:. If you wanted to look at the engine's true quality, you should pay attention to its thrust to weight ratio, T4 temperature, specific fuel consumption, and MTBO/serviceability.
We just need to rebuild and overhaul the engines like we do for Mirages. ToT won't mean we will be building RD-93s from scratch
 
I don't really understand what would be the benefit of RD-93 TOT if Pakistan could not absorb it anyways. We have to be honest with ourselves ... Pakistan doesn't really have an indigenous gas turbine industry and is heavily unlikely going to develop gas turbines by itself. Even manufacturing engines with a license would already be extremely difficult given the present gas turbine infrastructure. As India found out the extremely hard way, building gas turbines is not simply throwing money at it.
Bad governance since early 70's is the main cause of this unfortunate situation.
In order to indigenous development of a complicated industry such as aviation gas turbine industry, Pakistan need two major resources. (1) Skilled manpower and (2) Finance
Pakistan do possess talented and skilled manpower in abundance.
However, ensuring availability and optimum utilization of right amount of financial resource at a given time is another issue.

Whenever, you invest in an industry, you always consider, that the final product or service you provide should be consumed locally to attain the break-even. Then you look for foreign consumers.
But investing in an aviation industry is completely a different ball game.

Pakistan is a smaller country in geographical sense compared to Russia, China, USA and even India.
Therefore we do not have large airliners. Hence local consumption of indigenously developed aviation products is limited and cannot meet the break-even as the cost to produce them is too high.
In order to establish aviation industries in Pakistan, it must first seek foreign consumers for products and services.
But to seek foreign consumers you need to attract them.

PAF being major consumer of aviation product is helping Pakistan to develop infrastructure of complicated aviation industries. Establishment of AMF, MRF, Avionics and Radar Rebuild Factories, Engine Overhaul Factories are few steps to achieve this goal. Till recent, these infrastructures were being utilized purely to support military aviation, but now these facilities are opened for civil use such as PIA. Foreign customers such as Boeing have made contracts to manufacture wide body aircraft parts at PAC. Super Mushshak, K-8, and JF-17 are being sold to number of countries.

Step-wise ToT of RD-93 is one of the stages to develop aviation gas turbine industry infrastructure. Following could be some of the important steps of complete ToT.
1.Establishing overhauling facility.
2.Installation of various testing rigs and facilities.
3.Assembling and testing of engines from Knock down kits.
4.State of the art Test Cells
5.Manufacturing various smaller components such as engine harnesses, pipes, bearings etc,
6.Manufacturing of nozzles actuators, engine gearbox, fuel pump, hydro-mechanical furl control, Electronic fuel control and many more.
7.Manufacturing fan, core compressor modules, turbine module, combustion chamber, engine tail pipe etc.
Initially the infrastructure will be RD-93 specific, but this can be upgraded for other engines.
Yes, the cost to establish these facilities is enormous. Pakistan cannot afford it at present financial situation. PAF has to attract foreign and local business partners.
 
Bad governance since early 70's is the main cause of this unfortunate situation.
In order to indigenous development of a complicated industry such as aviation gas turbine industry, Pakistan need two major resources. (1) Skilled manpower and (2) Finance
Pakistan do possess talented and skilled manpower in abundance.
However, ensuring availability and optimum utilization of right amount of financial resource at a given time is another issue.

Whenever, you invest in an industry, you always consider, that the final product or service you provide should be consumed locally to attain the break-even. Then you look for foreign consumers.
But investing in an aviation industry is completely a different ball game.

Pakistan is a smaller country in geographical sense compared to Russia, China, USA and even India.
Therefore we do not have large airliners. Hence local consumption of indigenously developed aviation products is limited and cannot meet the break-even as the cost to produce them is too high.
In order to establish aviation industries in Pakistan, it must first seek foreign consumers for products and services.
But to seek foreign consumers you need to attract them.

PAF being major consumer of aviation product is helping Pakistan to develop infrastructure of complicated aviation industries. Establishment of AMF, MRF, Avionics and Radar Rebuild Factories, Engine Overhaul Factories are few steps to achieve this goal. Till recent, these infrastructures were being utilized purely to support military aviation, but now these facilities are opened for civil use such as PIA. Foreign customers such as Boeing have made contracts to manufacture wide body aircraft parts at PAC. Super Mushshak, K-8, and JF-17 are being sold to number of countries.

Step-wise ToT of RD-93 is one of the stages to develop aviation gas turbine industry infrastructure. Following could be some of the important steps of complete ToT.
1.Establishing overhauling facility.
2.Installation of various testing rigs and facilities.
3.Assembling and testing of engines from Knock down kits.
4.State of the art Test Cells
5.Manufacturing various smaller components such as engine harnesses, pipes, bearings etc,
6.Manufacturing of nozzles actuators, engine gearbox, fuel pump, hydro-mechanical furl control, Electronic fuel control and many more.
7.Manufacturing fan, core compressor modules, turbine module, combustion chamber, engine tail pipe etc.
Initially the infrastructure will be RD-93 specific, but this can be upgraded for other engines.
Yes, the cost to establish these facilities is enormous. Pakistan cannot afford it at present financial situation. PAF has to attract foreign and local business partners.
Fully agree with your a analysis. The cost to benefit ratio will just not be there for us to invest extensively into this industry. We do however need to look at projects where there is dual use utility to make it worth while. This in my view is the only way to progress in these fields.
A
 
It doesn't work like that. A jet is built around the engine not that the engine is changed at the last moment.
unless the engine is a minor variation of the same engine
rd93ma is basically the same engine it just is an upgrade
Bad governance since early 70's is the main cause of this unfortunate situation.
In order to indigenous development of a complicated industry such as aviation gas turbine industry, Pakistan need two major resources. (1) Skilled manpower and (2) Finance
Pakistan do possess talented and skilled manpower in abundance.
However, ensuring availability and optimum utilization of right amount of financial resource at a given time is another issue.

Whenever, you invest in an industry, you always consider, that the final product or service you provide should be consumed locally to attain the break-even. Then you look for foreign consumers.
But investing in an aviation industry is completely a different ball game.

Pakistan is a smaller country in geographical sense compared to Russia, China, USA and even India.
Therefore we do not have large airliners. Hence local consumption of indigenously developed aviation products is limited and cannot meet the break-even as the cost to produce them is too high.
In order to establish aviation industries in Pakistan, it must first seek foreign consumers for products and services.
But to seek foreign consumers you need to attract them.

PAF being major consumer of aviation product is helping Pakistan to develop infrastructure of complicated aviation industries. Establishment of AMF, MRF, Avionics and Radar Rebuild Factories, Engine Overhaul Factories are few steps to achieve this goal. Till recent, these infrastructures were being utilized purely to support military aviation, but now these facilities are opened for civil use such as PIA. Foreign customers such as Boeing have made contracts to manufacture wide body aircraft parts at PAC. Super Mushshak, K-8, and JF-17 are being sold to number of countries.

Step-wise ToT of RD-93 is one of the stages to develop aviation gas turbine industry infrastructure. Following could be some of the important steps of complete ToT.
1.Establishing overhauling facility.
2.Installation of various testing rigs and facilities.
3.Assembling and testing of engines from Knock down kits.
4.State of the art Test Cells
5.Manufacturing various smaller components such as engine harnesses, pipes, bearings etc,
6.Manufacturing of nozzles actuators, engine gearbox, fuel pump, hydro-mechanical furl control, Electronic fuel control and many more.
7.Manufacturing fan, core compressor modules, turbine module, combustion chamber, engine tail pipe etc.
Initially the infrastructure will be RD-93 specific, but this can be upgraded for other engines.
Yes, the cost to establish these facilities is enormous. Pakistan cannot afford it at present financial situation. PAF has to attract foreign and local business partners.
Why do you think cost benefit ratio will not be there for world top 15 defense spender with huge requirements..countries like sweden have far smaller budget and did far better..

Its a matter of focus and interest ..army aifroce and navy got cheap and good american weapons.

We need to look at turkey for example


Pakistan helicopter requirement will be 100s but we wont even try to get an offset because we are too shallow to think in that line
 
unless the engine is a minor variation of the same engine
rd93ma is basically the same engine it just is an upgrade

Why do you think cost benefit ratio will not be there for world top 15 defense spender with huge requirements..countries like sweden have far smaller budget and did far better..

Its a matter of focus and interest ..army aifroce and navy got cheap and good american weapons.

We need to look at turkey for example


Pakistan helicopter requirement will be 100s but we wont even try to get an offset because we are too shallow to think in that line
My previous comments were only focusing Pakistan.
At present USA and Western countries are not friendly due to CPEC.
Collaboration with US firms is out of question.
Moreover, we cannot have joint ventures with western countries (specially in military industries). Because strings are attached to US and .......

Except France, most aviation industries in Europe (including Turkey) use American made or franchise engines.

Pakistan do not have such opportunity. It can only collaborate with friendly countries such as China, Azerbaijan and probably Russia.
Russian aviation engine infrastructure is more advance than Chinese.
Cost is comparatively lower and technology is at par with western aviation engine industries.
That is why Pakistan is more interested in establishing Russian infra-structure at the initial stage.
Later on western technologies can also be fused upon availability of opportunities.

Developing aviation engine infra structure and ensuring its efficient and optimum utilization to meet break-even and more is very important. In order to sustain this industry requires continuous research and up-gradation hence need more money.

Though establishing RD-93 overhauling facility and engine assembly plant for knockdown kits are initial and very basic steps towards complete ToT.
However, establishing manufacturing facilities for aviation engine components such as engine gearbox, various components of engine fuel systems, actuators and engine bearings require high tech casting and machining infrastructure. Hence huge investment is needed.

Pakistan must seek local as well as foreign investors to establish these facilities. Investors will only be attracted, if facilities provide profit on their investment.
Hence these facilities cannot be for one engine specific. These facilities should be able to produce components for all types of aviation engines currently used in Pakistan and abroad.
 
The word TOT should be banned for India and Pakistan for heaven sake TOT for both of them is like absorbing sea to the stomach .Just write allowed to assemble AKA TOT
 
RD-93MA Engine, to Power Pakistan JF-17 Block III Jets, Enters Thermal Chamber Tests

A new engine for the Pakistani JF-17 fighter jet, dubbed RD-93MA being developed by Russia’s United Engine Corporation (UEC)-Klimov has entered thermal chamber tests to confirm high-speed characteristics in simulated flight conditions.

The RD-93MA has been specifically developed to power single engine light fighter jets. It is an upgrade of the RD-93 engine which currently powers the Pakistani JF-17/Chinese Chengdu FC-1 single engine fighter jets.

With the successful completion of the thermal chamber test stage, it will be possible to proceed to flight design tests. A set of tests in the TsIAM large thermal pressure chamber will be held as part of the experimental design work on the RD-93MA, a UEC statement said today.

During the tests, the engine will simulate conditions as close as possible to actual flight. Here, the BARK-93MA, the automatic control system of the engine, designed and manufactured at UEC-Klimov, will also be put to test.

The thrust of the RD-93MA is expected to 9300 Kgf compared to 8300 kgf of the RD-93, a significant bump-up in power which will help the JF-17/FC-1 to carry more armaments and fly at a higher speed (this information is not from UEC but earlier published sources).

The RD-93MA engine is distinguished by improved operational characteristics, increased thermodynamic parameters, a larger fan and an upgraded automatic power plant control system. The main engine parameters are also enhanced- the assigned resource and thrust, an emergency engine start mode is provided, and the possibility of emergency fuel drain is realized.” the statement said.

All this is due to the specifics associated with the possible use of the power plant on a single-engine aircraft, which entails additional safety requirements,the statement added leaving no doubt as to its potential applications for an foreign customer as Russia does not possess a single-engine fighter jet.

“The start of testing was preceded by a long preparatory phase. During 2018-2019 design documentation was handed over to manufacturing plants, production was organized in a new cooperation structure, engine models of the RD-93MA were developed and a new engine "harness" was manufactured. In addition, tests of the VK-100-1MK turbo-starter in the TsIAM heat chamber according to confirmation of high-altitude launch were conducted. Prototypes of the BARK-93MA (automatic engine control system) were made and much more,” the statement said.

The JF-17 block III, a highly advanced version of the JF-17 Block II, was test flown for the first time at the start of this year. Besides the engine, the key upgrade is an AESA- Active electronically scanning array- radar which has already been selected from a Chinese manufacturer.

Earlier reports said the RD-93MA engine will be directly sold to Pakistan. However, sources told defenseworld.net that the engine upgrade work is under contract from a Chinese company for which over 100 such engines is to be manufactured.

The engine is expected to enter fight test mode towards the end of the year which means the JF-17 Block III would enter flight tests with the RD-93MA engine sometime in 2021-22 at the earliest.
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...ts__Enters_Thermal_Chamber_Tests#.X4O959AzbIU
 

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