PAF should've invested more on J-10s rather than JF-17s

[razgriz19]

Dear Mr. Farooqi1 "the keyboard warrior",
You have a full right to express your opinion and we have a full right to criticize it.
PAF brass knows what they are doing, and im pretty sure there are a few "more intelligent" people than you in PAF and I'm putting my trust on them. (we all are actually)

and please stop with "settling for less" arguement!
Russia had to retire 88 operational nuclear submarine because they could not keep them operational after the collapse of soviet union. do you think they "settled for less"?

it all comes down to financial position of the country. Buying them is another thing, keeping them operational is another!
do you know operational cost of jet over its lifetime is twice as expensive as its initial cost!
a $20 million Jf-17's entire life operational cost will be roughly $30-40 million. (spares, fuel etc)

so again, dont just look at the price, also look at the other factors.

 

[Farooqi1]

Dear Mr. Farooqi1 "the keyboard warrior",
You have a full right to express your opinion and we have a full right to criticize it.
PAF brass knows what they are doing, and im pretty sure there are a few "more intelligent" people than you in PAF and I'm putting my trust on them. (we all are actually)

and please stop with "settling for less" arguement!
Russia had to retire 88 operational nuclear submarine because they could not keep them operational after the collapse of soviet union. do you think they "settled for less"?

it all comes down to financial position of the country. Buying them is another thing, keeping them operational is another!
do you know operational cost of jet over its lifetime is twice as expensive as its initial cost!
a $20 million Jf-17's entire life operational cost will be roughly $30-40 million. (spares, fuel etc)

so again, dont just look at the price, also look at the other factors.

Mr. Razgriz 19. I like the title Key Board Warrior. I might change my forum name to that. There is an old story (and I am not sure about authenticity of it. May God forgive me if I am saying something which may not be true) about Prophet Abraham. When he was throne in the fire, there was a little (as per the story) bird bringing water, in her small little beak, trying to put out the fire. Someone asked the little bird that what do you think you are doing? You think water in your small little beak would put out this big of a fire. The bird replied I don't know that but I know this when on the day of judgement my creator would ask me that what have you done when my Abraham was burning in the fire? Then I would reply that God I did what ever I could as per the capabilities you have created me with. So got my point about "keyboard Warrior".

Rest of the stuff just lame argument. As far as other factors sir you don't have a choice. As per Great Z A Bhutto we shall eat grass but we will have the nuclear capability. All you need a resolve. And above all it is just my opinion. I have no power need I say. The policy is stupid and wrong.

 

[SBD-3]

Once again please go to PAF Falcon site. The first thing you would see is JF-17 Pakistan new lethal machine.

Where did I advice PAF to make it as potent as possible? I just expressed my opinion. Please read my post again. It is you all who are calling it medium tech not intended to be Grippen etc etc. You all have given up and settled for less.

And wishing that we should buy from Russia or try to buy from Russia makes me enemy? And how do you know they would not sell it to us? Things can change in today's international political environment and are changing. Why the hell Putin is visiting a country like Pakistan who according to the rest of the world is broke and failed terrorist state WHICH I DON"T BELIEVE AT ALL. Who according to some has nothing to offer to Russia. Think the opportunity and what could be achieved.

As far as Phantom Dollars are concerned do you know how much India paid in 2000 to Russia for 140 SUMKI and TOT? 3+ $Billion and China paid $2.1 billion for SU 27 and TOT. Now go figure.

You know what I am turning out to be a big fan of Mr. Mastan Khan. I believe as per your thinking he could be an enemy too. Grow up kiddos.

I wont comment on the Russian Part, nor about the IAF philosophy. The weapons arsenal on display with JFT in Dubai and UK was as impressive as any other airplane on that exhibition. What weapon it can't carry? Anti-Ship Missiles, Air to Air BVR/WVR. Stand off munition (LS-6), LGBS (FT-5), Targeting Pods, Jamming Pods were all there. Furthermore, recently it was also revealed that PAF is trying to integrate Stand off Air Launched, Land Attack Cruise Missile (C-802 AKG) and what more, SD-10B has started its operational career in PAF. These are all capabilities. Like i said before, either you go for platform itself or the capabilities. Recently we heard that Kamra is expanding to absorb new technologies and full rate production of JFT. There can only be two reasons 1) Kamra is crazy enough since it would make little sense to expand the production when all you have to manufacture is an order of 200 aircraft which would have production going for say next 5 years. 2) Kamra has taken a strategic view and is looking forward for more expected ventures (JFT Export or J10B). on ToT, there has been a considerable debate what is the actual meaning of ToT. It can be anything. For example in JSF program, all the partner nations will have only a certain stake in manufacturing process even with a contribution in development costs. French Agosta Sub ToT did not entail transfer of complete manufacturing in Pakistan. With JFT, Pakistan has essentially got ToPT (Transfer of Production Technology).

 

[Manticore]

Farooqi1 kindly post your reservations regarding jft in a tabulative form / list systematically so that its easier/quicker to read and respond

 

[MastanKhan]

-Ive responded to this in ur wall since its off topic and all...




-Well I'll respond to you like this...if the new furniture comes in with a brand new exotic design, with ur seller willing to give u additional furniture and provide you with the infrastructure to build new ones in your home....that and the new furniture is like a generation ahead (its more smoothly carved, more stylish,more resistive to damage and all)...
Thats the thing I conclude from JFT replacing F-7/Mirage series...



SD-10A/B BVR with 90+ Kms range on it, KLJ-07 being on par with the likes of RC-400 according to a PAF pilot.On to the EW suite you should check the information pool to actually get an idea of how good it is...
According to Nabil-05 at one time we were looking for a customized Spectra EW suite (yes the same used on rafale) as an upgrade because the current EW suite is itself very advanced....



Interesting you mention it cuz Gripen NG will use A-darter as a primary WVRAAM in the near future...
but then again JF-17 isn't made to be a higher end fighter .... like the gripen... and see the cost difference..JFT at 15-20 million dollars and gripen at 40-60million dollars




The problem is it is not in your hands or mine, Its in the hands of PAF, what they feel is good enough,
PAF on one side is claiming that JF-17 is responsible for changing their doctrines and all .. and here we have u saying its not good enough....

and now I know it'll get dragged in to PAF shouldve invested more in J-11B's and stuff

Just take the whole R&D cost that Pak gave + 40 JF-17's cost and then calculate how much J-11B's at 50 million could we get...

250+ (15 X 40) = 850 million dollars = 17 J-11B's and then other costs like
cost of training + extensive maintenance + supplies/spares - TOT (transfer of technology) and know how

Hi,

You are so innocent my boy----. I understand that you desperately want to save and protect the honor of the organization that you love so much---like so many other young pakistanis on this board over here.

In the world of weapons---when your backis against the wall---you always pick the proven and tested system over the young and growing---becasue the kinks have been taken out of the proven and tested systems---.

It is just like you young pakistanis----all steam, bubble and broth---but nothing much of substance---. You see--all these chinese systems will be good---but only in due time---. Through tests and tribulations they will come thru---no doubt about it----but then what is the cost of time. That is something---pakistanis are clueless about---.

Next thing---what is parity against the enemy---. By reading the posts of the majority of pakistanis---I can say with confidence---that you people are clueless to what that means----.

An example--M1A1 abrams tank---it took out the iraqi tanks at 4000 meters---the irai tanks could hit the abrams at max range of 2500 meters but even at lesser distances the iraqi projectiles could not damage the abrams.

Now take pak millitary----why is armour so important to the ground forces---any pakistani tank can take any indian tank head to head---within equal shooting distance and with equally lethal power----. Some say that some pak tanks are more capable than their counter parts in certain environments---.

Then what seems to be true for the goose---why is it not true for the gander---. If the ground forces are extremely conscious of maintaing parity against the enemy---why does it change for the air force---.

What changes for the paf is that they are liars---they have cheated pakistan for a long time---20 plus years---. They became too good for their own good---that made them arrogant---and now they have to eat crow---.

I mean to say---look at you people---you educated people are blinded by un-questioned loyalty to the paf---you come to defend this organization---against all their incompetence and deceptions---like trying to protect the honor of the maiden---she ain't no maiden---.

In the 2nd world war--the german tank were far superior than anything that walked on a track----then how did the americansand the allies beat them---by putting sheer numbers against them---by stopping the production of the german tanks and keeping the americans factories going---.

So--if paf can have a fleet of 500 jf 17 plus other 150 J10's and 150 F16's---I will say yes---paf will can take on the iaf by sheer numbers----keeping in mind the current numbers of iaf aircraft---including the mrca----. With such massive numbers---the paf can take a beating and give a thrashing in return for one---.

The next thing----the iaf jugular vein is the SU30----regardless of what the indians say or claim---if pakistan take down the su30's sent against them---the morale of the iaf would be in the bottom---there air force would have lost the war--because that is their pride and glory and that is what they worship---they worship the power of the SU30----no ifs and buts about it---.

There is no strategy to taking out iaf---have an aircraft that will take out the su30---and iaf is done---I will guarantee you this---if you have a fleet of air craft in decent numbers that can take out the su 30 today without any fear---indian govt will make the peace deal with you.

When you become a warrior---and want to do better than the enemy---then you have to look at the scenario thru the enemy's eyes---you have to know what the enemy pride's itself in---and what it feels is its achilles heal----SU30 is the achilles heal of indian air force---. All the indian members over here will yell and scream at me for saying that---but if you take the venom outof this aircraft---then you have tamd the dragon---JF17 is not something that will tame the dragon---but on the contrary---it will infuriate the enemy more----.

The enemy will feel insulted and humiliated that this little bee is supposed to take it out---. In millitary terms---it is not good---so here is a video for my young pakistanis---I am sure you have seen it before----


Kid Beats Up Bully - YouTube

 

[The enlightened]

So--if paf can have a fleet of 500 jf 17 plus other 150 J10's and 150 F16's---I will say yes---paf will can take on the iaf by sheer numbers----keeping in mind the current numbers of iaf aircraft---including the mrca----. With such massive numbers---the paf can take a beating and give a thrashing in return for one---.

The next thing----the iaf jugular vein is the SU30----regardless of what the indians say or claim---if pakistan take down the su30's sent against them---the morale of the iaf would be in the bottom---there air force would have lost the war--because that is their pride and glory and that is what they worship---they worship the power of the SU30----no ifs and buts about it---.

There is no strategy to taking out iaf---have an aircraft that will take out the su30---and iaf is done---I will guarantee you this---if you have a fleet of air craft in decent numbers that can take out the su 30 today without any fear---indian govt will make the peace deal with you.

When you become a warrior---and want to do better than the enemy---then you have to look at the scenario thru the enemy's eyes---you have to know what the enemy pride's itself in---and what it feels is its achilles heal----SU30 is the achilles heal of indian air force---. All the indian members over here will yell and scream at me for saying that---but if you take the venom outof this aircraft---then you have tamd the dragon---JF17 is not something that will tame the dragon---but on the contrary---it will infuriate the enemy more----.

The enemy will feel insulted and humiliated that this little bee is supposed to take it out---. In millitary terms---it is not good---so here is a video for my young pakistanis---I am sure you have seen it before----

I 'll comment on the bolded part later but for the rest.
Is this a joke? You think IAF is going to play an internet war and once Su 30's are downed they'll sit back, hold their hands and sing 'Allah tero naam, Ishvar tero naaaaam'. This isn't some la-la land where people especially armed forces operate in the way you mentioned-'If we take down their best, there morale will be down, they would have lost the war'. No one worships the Su 30MKI. Mabe there are some some Internet fanboys who do but not the more serious people and especially not the armed forces. They take it for what it is and it is a very good plane. And no amount of your pathetic self-consoling can change that.
Wars aren't fought like this, their are strategies, doctrines, formations, protocols and priorities.
And then the bolded part. Do you even know that the 50 or so JF-17's are purchased on soft loans from China and here you are asking 500, along with 150 F-16's and J-10. Unfortunately for internet warriors like you life doesn't work that way. Not even in the land of the pure.
JF-17 for it's price is an excellent plane and was a surprise for many of us. It may not be the best, or not even close to the best, but it is the best PAF can get for now regardless of the previous blunders it made and that my friend is the truth, whether you like it or not.
{REQUEST FOR MODS: If my post will be deleted, please make sure you do the same for @mastankhan's post or atleast edit some OT part about MKI, please}

 

[abdulbarijan]

Hi,

You are so innocent my boy----. I understand that you desperately want to save and protect the honor of the organization that you love so much---like so many other young pakistanis on this board over here.

In the world of weapons---when your backis against the wall---you always pick the proven and tested system over the young and growing---becasue the kinks have been taken out of the proven and tested systems---.

It is just like you young pakistanis----all steam, bubble and broth---but nothing much of substance---. You see--all these chinese systems will be good---but only in due time---. Through tests and tribulations they will come thru---no doubt about it----but then what is the cost of time. That is something---pakistanis are clueless about---.

Next thing---what is parity against the enemy---. By reading the posts of the majority of pakistanis---I can say with confidence---that you people are clueless to what that means----.

An example--M1A1 abrams tank---it took out the iraqi tanks at 4000 meters---the irai tanks could hit the abrams at max range of 2500 meters but even at lesser distances the iraqi projectiles could not damage the abrams.

Now take pak millitary----why is armour so important to the ground forces---any pakistani tank can take any indian tank head to head---within equal shooting distance and with equally lethal power----. Some say that some pak tanks are more capable than their counter parts in certain environments---.

Then what seems to be true for the goose---why is it not true for the gander---. If the ground forces are extremely conscious of maintaing parity against the enemy---why does it change for the air force---.

What changes for the paf is that they are liars---they have cheated pakistan for a long time---20 plus years---. They became too good for their own good---that made them arrogant---and now they have to eat crow---.

I mean to say---look at you people---you educated people are blinded by un-questioned loyalty to the paf---you come to defend this organization---against all their incompetence and deceptions---like trying to protect the honor of the maiden---she ain't no maiden---.

In the 2nd world war--the german tank were far superior than anything that walked on a track----then how did the americansand the allies beat them---by putting sheer numbers against them---by stopping the production of the german tanks and keeping the americans factories going---.

So--if paf can have a fleet of 500 jf 17 plus other 150 J10's and 150 F16's---I will say yes---paf will can take on the iaf by sheer numbers----keeping in mind the current numbers of iaf aircraft---including the mrca----. With such massive numbers---the paf can take a beating and give a thrashing in return for one---.

The next thing----the iaf jugular vein is the SU30----regardless of what the indians say or claim---if pakistan take down the su30's sent against them---the morale of the iaf would be in the bottom---there air force would have lost the war--because that is their pride and glory and that is what they worship---they worship the power of the SU30----no ifs and buts about it---.

There is no strategy to taking out iaf---have an aircraft that will take out the su30---and iaf is done---I will guarantee you this---if you have a fleet of air craft in decent numbers that can take out the su 30 today without any fear---indian govt will make the peace deal with you.

When you become a warrior---and want to do better than the enemy---then you have to look at the scenario thru the enemy's eyes---you have to know what the enemy pride's itself in---and what it feels is its achilles heal----SU30 is the achilles heal of indian air force---. All the indian members over here will yell and scream at me for saying that---but if you take the venom outof this aircraft---then you have tamd the dragon---JF17 is not something that will tame the dragon---but on the contrary---it will infuriate the enemy more----.

The enemy will feel insulted and humiliated that this little bee is supposed to take it out---. In millitary terms---it is not good---so here is a video for my young pakistanis---I am sure you have seen it before----


Kid Beats Up Bully - YouTube

So basically sir you have 3 points which I would like to express my opinions about...

-PAF deceived us time and again

-PAF like ground forces should have parity with Indian counter parts

-And to achieve that we should a higher end fighter that can counter SU-30's (as it is IAF's jagular vein)


Now firstly on the deceiving part... "whats done cant be undone " so we should worry about the present not the past (which also includes the performance of PAF against IAF, InAF, Russian airforce and all)

Secondly In complete honesty I would love to see a twin engined fighter like EF-2000, Rafale in PAF but the fact is we CANNOT afford them!
For arguments sake lets pour extra money (MLU deal + F-16 deal +JFT lets say it never happened) and say PAF got like 30 Rafale/EF-2000 (jets that can match or outmatch MKI)

What will we do for the continuous waves of IAF........ will 30 rafales be able to handle all of them .... the answer is NO!
why? because the rest of the fleet will still be of F-16 A/B , Mirage and F-7 P/PG will and comparatively handle more IAF thrusts then rafale or EF-2000....

So instead of getting 30 odd 4++ fighters we should atleast make the rest of the fleet capable to 4 gen standards atleast ....

and then add higher end fighters that can match up to the likes of MKI etc (j-10 B's & F-16)

So sir I dont believe that investing such a huge amount on higher end fighters for a small minority of the airforce numbers and leaving the rest as a sitting duck is the way to go.....


Anyways if India doesn't get on the table with Pak's nuclear & missile program in motion.. I dont know what else will get them on the table as we are numerically outmatched in the land forces and both technologically and numerically outmatched in the air and naval forces...

 

[Luftwaffe]

MK, we may say it a thousand times, these people are really not getting the point the last thing you and I would need to do is bang our heads against the walls.

- When you remind them of 36 Rafale [would have been a strategic purchase], they tell you J-10B is the answer and all the nonsense comes along sanctions and stuff, Rafale an operational fighter vs Prototype...besides the last trouble solved AESA ready...remember they bragged about mirage III/V buy was a great deal but when you ask them during kargil war, French stopped the ones sent for upgrades that was before economic crunch now Europe will sell you anything it is all about show me money! so applying their logic was mirage deal good, These people run away without answers, post 2000 everything is about Money.

- When you remind them of originally planned 77 F-16s they tell you sanctions and have nukes, forgetting there is funding channeled towards nuclear production thus F-16 is also important as one of the most important equipment to deliver nukes but neglected. Look Americans who you call anti-islam and anti-Pakistan sold you F-16s infact offered you unlimited F-16s knowing about jihadis you kept knowing nukes knowing you supply things to Chinese under the table for evaluation and then people blame west they don’t want to sell, the most careful nation USA when it comes to military deals offered you those damn toys! How could you refuse the numbers in the name of victims? French would have welcomed you to procure a couple of squadrons of Rafale while you were dealing with the american for F-16s you should have thrown a bone to the French; you intelligent people this was the time to kill mrca.

- These genius people would skill fully tell you don’t put all eggs in one baskets but yet they would go for all Chinese equipment. The hypocrisy, west does not hate you because of Islam they hate you because you lie and cheat and you are not honest in business.

- When you tell them the first thing PAF should have done was provided $200M-400M more to develop right from the scratch F-16 class fighter in payload-range they remind you yet again of J-10B, you know what would have happened IF we had JF-17 in the Class of F-16, we would have concentrated on one Platform there would have been no waiting period, and we would a good plan of 300+ infact we would have gone a little further to blend out fleet with either american or french avionics-weapons, IF russians can give you rd-93 they would have given you the better variant every one wants dollars it is business as usual, you know Indians are only scared of anything that is F-16 Class or F-16 itself. The way Pakistan has played dirty role throughout history afterwards 70 it is a miracle to get these F-16s when we were offered it was the last Card we have not played it wisely. Poverty was is and will be in Pakistan for generations under corrupt governments what difference does it make there is no electricity, no trains, no gas, no water, no money has been spent on earthquake victims and flood victims under musharraf/ppp, there is no point is lying and crying that we are spending funds on other issues so no funds for the specific projects, airmed forces should have spine to demand Funds.
It is hard to convince certain people and to educate them.
Lets for a moment accept JF-17 can do it right!, questions: against 126 Rafales? against 272 SU-30s? against Fulcrums that are being upgraded in process of being modernized and new orders placed around and total of older and newer around 6 Sqdns? against 52 M2K-5? which one would JF-17 take on how many and what would be the Success Rate and why do people think indian airforce is goofy they would not change their strategies? a joke to compare JF-17 against the most modern Fulcrum , I have read here certain people takes JF-17 eating Fulcrum for breakfast.

We are not saying that JF-17 is a bad aircraft and or would fall out of the sky every time, But people use logic in the future 550 modern state of the art aircrafts would be flying from the other side.

People I would recommend do not get agitated; this discussion will not end until you people accept the real logic. The only logic is JF-17 in numbers will be flown against enemy playing a Probability Game, whether you agree or disagree with me.

So MK, they have readily available imbecilic illogical answers to satisfy themselves.

The point is for the last 20+ Years, you evaluated Tornadoes, you evaluated MK2 and negotiate for Mirages thrice and dumped it and settled for inferior F-7s and collected Mirage III/V across the universe to save dollars always a typical sort of mentality "chalti ka nam gadi"; and then spent money on both platforms to upgrade-update them which were still inferior to M2K/Tornadoes/F-16s and then you insult west they did not offer you anything, Yes they offered you when they offered you it was you who backed out even Thailand is operating Gripens even Swiss Air Force is ready to take Gripen, though the blame also goes to zia and military also all befall us due to your deep shyt assets called mujaheddins who dumped you for dollars it is fair for west to the point of pointing fingers at you for not taking care of those pests, you should have dumped them in 90-91 completely sealed borders and station 50,000 men so mujaheddin would not have crossed and bred over in Pakistan, all would have been well, the most damage certain military men did is to Pakistan. Everything is interrelated.

 

[alimobin memon]

MK, we may say it a thousand times, these people are really not getting the point the last thing you and I would need to do is bang our heads against the walls.

- When you remind them of 36 Rafale [would have been a strategic purchase], they tell you J-10B is the answer and all the nonsense comes along sanctions and stuff, Rafale an operational fighter vs Prototype...besides the last trouble solved AESA ready...remember they bragged about mirage III/V buy was a great deal but when you ask them during kargil war, French stopped the ones sent for upgrades that was before economic crunch now Europe will sell you anything it is all about show me money! so applying their logic was mirage deal good, These people run away without answers, post 2000 everything is about Money.

- When you remind them of originally planned 77 F-16s they tell you sanctions and have nukes, forgetting there is funding channeled towards nuclear production thus F-16 is also important as one of the most important equipment to deliver nukes but neglected. Look Americans who you call anti-islam and anti-Pakistan sold you F-16s infact offered you unlimited F-16s knowing about jihadis you kept knowing nukes knowing you supply things to Chinese under the table for evaluation and then people blame west they don’t want to sell, the most careful nation USA when it comes to military deals offered you those damn toys! How could you refuse the numbers in the name of victims? French would have welcomed you to procure a couple of squadrons of Rafale while you were dealing with the american for F-16s you should have thrown a bone to the French; you intelligent people this was the time to kill mrca.

- These genius people would skill fully tell you don’t put all eggs in one baskets but yet they would go for all Chinese equipment. The hypocrisy, west does not hate you because of Islam they hate you because you lie and cheat and you are not honest in business.

- When you tell them the first thing PAF should have done was provided $200M-400M more to develop right from the scratch F-16 class fighter in payload-range they remind you yet again of J-10B, you know what would have happened IF we had JF-17 in the Class of F-16, we would have concentrated on one Platform there would have been no waiting period, and we would a good plan of 300+ infact we would have gone a little further to blend out fleet with either american or french avionics-weapons, IF russians can give you rd-93 they would have given you the better variant every one wants dollars it is business as usual, you know Indians are only scared of anything that is F-16 Class or F-16 itself. The way Pakistan has played dirty role throughout history afterwards 70 it is a miracle to get these F-16s when we were offered it was the last Card we have not played it wisely. Poverty was is and will be in Pakistan for generations under corrupt governments what difference does it make there is no electricity, no trains, no gas, no water, no money has been spent on earthquake victims and flood victims under musharraf/ppp, there is no point is lying and crying that we are spending funds on other issues so no funds for the specific projects, airmed forces should have spine to demand Funds.
It is hard to convince certain people and to educate them.
Lets for a moment accept JF-17 can do it right!, questions: against 126 Rafales? against 272 SU-30s? against Fulcrums that are being upgraded in process of being modernized and new orders placed around and total of older and newer around 6 Sqdns? against 52 M2K-5? which one would JF-17 take on how many and what would be the Success Rate and why do people think indian airforce is goofy they would not change their strategies? a joke to compare JF-17 against the most modern Fulcrum , I have read here certain people takes JF-17 eating Fulcrum for breakfast.

We are not saying that JF-17 is a bad aircraft and or would fall out of the sky every time, But people use logic in the future 550 modern state of the art aircrafts would be flying from the other side.

People I would recommend do not get agitated; this discussion will not end until you people accept the real logic. The only logic is JF-17 in numbers will be flown against enemy playing a Probability Game, whether you agree or disagree with me.

So MK, they have readily available imbecilic illogical answers to satisfy themselves.

The point is for the last 20+ Years, you evaluated Tornadoes, you evaluated MK2 and negotiate for Mirages thrice and dumped it and settled for inferior F-7s and collected Mirage III/V across the universe to save dollars always a typical sort of mentality "chalti ka nam gadi"; and then spent money on both platforms to upgrade-update them which were still inferior to M2K/Tornadoes/F-16s and then you insult west they did not offer you anything, Yes they offered you when they offered you it was you who backed out even Thailand is operating Gripens even Swiss Air Force is ready to take Gripen, though the blame also goes to zia and military also all befall us due to your deep shyt assets called mujaheddins who dumped you for dollars it is fair for west to the point of pointing fingers at you for not taking care of those pests, you should have dumped them in 90-91 completely sealed borders and station 50,000 men so mujaheddin would not have crossed and bred over in Pakistan, all would have been well, the most damage certain military men did is to Pakistan. Everything is interrelated.

if u don't know anything don't blame PAF ok!! .... 1st gripen and mirage 2000 were offered indeed but we were sanctioned and unfortunately both the gripen and mirage 2000 had 25% parts from US and US denied to give the gripens and mirages to PAF and Tornado well bro UK is loyal servant interms of international politics to United States PAF was later again told that they cannot be offered tornado's so please dont say that PAF saved money for as "chalti ka naam gadi" by the way mirage rose are so freaking that my friend in PAF told me that they should not be considered as 3rd generation interms of avionics they are like initial 4th generation ... and if u have never read about the f7pg bro PAF bought it from china and modified it with 36 modifications even added fourth generation radar grifo with range against 3rcs is 35 km and both mirage III and IV + F7PG are BVR'S even HMS/D can be integrated on both platforms. you should be thankful we dont have mirage 2000 because now in 2009 estimate they played game with us and u know the avionics deal with french for jf17 was worth 1.7bil$ they left deal just because INDIA asked france to cancel deal with PAF and we will make a deal worth i don't know maybe 4 billion dollars for up-gradation of mirage 2000 and some naval suites. So if u dont know don't blame mister,

Read some books regarding mujahideen ok!! don't blame pakistan we have lost so many soldiers for the war of US vs mujahideen i think u deserve a slap. first u dont know and keep blaming us for nothing.....

and FYI INDIA is not going to send all his 550 high tech aircraft and at the other hand we have defensive doctrine we wont be sending our force to their country but they are ... we have almost 10000+ shoulder launched missile for instance we admit these missile wont hit at first chance but these will definitely hit at firing 3 missiles OK !! that is already proven read books regarding Stinger or and shoulder launched missiles and we have ground based air defense systems... and FYI if INDIA will send 550 jets to Pakistan then china will show you a troll face and attack admit it or not china is India's 2nd biggest enemy...

 

[Luftwaffe]

alimobin memon; It hurts you people badly..

 

[The enlightened]

Where have you people been getting the idea that India stopped the French avionics deal using the Mirage upgrade deal. That too with the hilarious figure of $4 billion. The upgrade deal was worth $2.1 billion.
This deal would have most likely fallen through, if it were even true, due to the inability of Pakistan to have paid for the avionics or as some senior members claim that the French weren't giving away their best.

 

[Safriz]

only after this dumbfuk eaters of the traesure zardari goes...pakistan can start thinking of any big deals..until then no money no honey.

 

[alimobin memon]

Where have you people been getting the idea that India stopped the French avionics deal using the Mirage upgrade deal. That too with the hilarious figure of $4 billion. The upgrade deal was worth $2.1 billion.
This deal would have most likely fallen through, if it were even true, due to the inability of Pakistan to have paid for the avionics or as some senior members claim that the French weren't giving away their best.

if u read i have written "i don't know maybe 4 billion $ "

only after this dumbfuk eaters of the traesure zardari goes...pakistan can start thinking of any big deals..until then no money no honey.

There is no proof that zardari is responsible the weapons deal is in hands of parliament and military and in our country military does not need any1's permission admit it.

 

[The enlightened]

Self Delete

 

[alimobin memon]

Where have you people been getting the idea that India stopped the French avionics deal using the Mirage upgrade deal. That too with the hilarious figure of $4 billion. The upgrade deal was worth $2.1 billion.
This deal would have most likely fallen through, if it were even true, due to the inability of Pakistan to have paid for the avionics or as some senior members claim that the French weren't giving away their best.

India inks Mirage deal, France says no to Pak - Indian Express