Gujarat riots not an issue that should keep Modi from becoming PM: Narayana Murthy

[Dillinger]

Actually people do realize that Modi brings tremendous Inspirational Leadership that has the power to transform society and the Nation.

Modi can certainly inspire the pusillanimous and the weak to gather courage and make a stand and fight for a common goal. That is what Leadership is all about, is it not ?

Modi is a Leader in the truest sense of the word.......and people see him for what he is. That is why he is such an inspirational figure.

People don't see a leader, not one they wish to be led by anyway. Not that the latter sentiment has anything to do with his leadership qualities or any supposed lack there off, it stems rather from congenital apathy. They, the majority, simply see a man who administers well and therefore will provide a certain modicum of efficiency, a man who will ease some of the burdens they face perhaps and a man who will make things a bit smoother (admirable achievements, if achieved, given the sort of system we have established). What you see and hear is a lot of garbling and hot air (from the common folk), as if they can only take a leaf out of Modi's notebook once he becomes the PM and not before (in their personal capacities). If folks here were the sort to partake in a "bhagidari" with an able leader then leaders would have emerged from among the same "folks" a long time back. Some people, most in our case, have no wish to be inspired or led. We still pass on the blame of our malaise on to the neta or the babu, forgetting that we (I, you and them) are every bit as lukewarm as the portly babu who strains to lift his stack of files with his anemic body laboring under the weight. Such a mindset cannot be changed by any one man, no matter how personally capable or otherwise inspiring said man maybe, the only cure is the revitalization of the animus of the people- an event that only the populace itself can engineer. Although, one can hope that Modi or perhaps someone else will shine a shallow beam of light towards said path, optimism has never killed anyone after all. But optimism is also less nourishing than faith backed by precedence and history.

 

[janon]

Vague assertions and claims are not worth my time discussing. But faulty behavior can certainly be pointed out and corrected to improve the quality of the forum.

The quality of certain posts do not warrant a reply, but the fact that they are Indians makes me give them a second chance to become a better person.

If you observe I do not waste such time with pakistani's and chinese on this forum.

Before you embark on the lofty goal of improving the quality of the forum, you might want to re-read the thread and see who is making posts of substance on the topic, and who is going on and on about logical fallacies and debating tactics. (BTW I have to point out that your understanding of logical fallacies is also rather shallow - red herrings and strawman arguments don't really mean what you think they mean. You have been using these terms rather liberally on every thread you have typed in. Anyway, debating the tactics of debate instead of the subject at hand is rather sophomorish. It may not be the best way to improve forum quality.)

 

[Indischer]

LOL. sure.

Why not 'discuss' Gandhi and Modi and the similarities between the two ?

Sure. As I've said before, I don't have rigid preconceptions on anyone. If you have enough ammo to point out that Gandhi and NaMo share a lot of similarities in behavior/character, I'll take that!

 

[adwityagrata]

Before you embark on the lofty goal of improving the quality of the forum, you might want to re-read the thread and see who is making posts of substance on the topic, and who is going on and on about logical fallacies and debating tactics. (BTW I have to point out that your understanding of logical fallacies is also rather shallow - red herrings and strawman arguments don't really mean what you think they mean. You have been using these terms rather liberally on every thread you have typed in. Anyway, debating the tactics of debate instead of the subject at hand is rather sophomorish. It may not be the best way to improve forum quality.)

Clearly there is nothing of substance in this post except a strong desire to 'preach' and make unsubstantiated claims. Not worth my time responding.

 

[adwityagrata]

People don't see a leader, not one they wish to be led by anyway. Not that the latter sentiment has anything to do with his leadership qualities or any supposed lack there off, it stems rather from congenital apathy. They, the majority, simply see a man who administers well and therefore will provide a certain modicum of efficiency, a man who will ease some of the burdens they face perhaps and a man who will make things a bit smoother (admirable achievements, if achieved, given the sort of system we have established). What you see and hear is a lot of garbling and hot air (from the common folk), as if they can only take a leaf out of Modi's notebook once he becomes the PM and not before (in their personal capacities). If folks here were the sort to partake in a "bhagidari" with an able leader then leaders would have emerged from among the same "folks" a long time back. Some people, most in our case, have no wish to be inspired or led. We still pass on the blame of our malaise on to the neta or the babu, forgetting that we (I, you and them) are every bit as lukewarm as the portly babu who strains to lift his stack of files with his anemic body laboring under the weight. Such a mindset cannot be changed by any one man, no matter how personally capable or otherwise inspiring said man maybe, the only cure is the revitalization of the animus of the people- an event that only the populace itself can engineer. Although, one can hope that Modi or perhaps someone else will shine a shallow beam of light towards said path, optimism has never killed anyone after all. But optimism is also less nourishing than faith backed by precedence and history.

I think you give far too little credit to the public. The Aam Admi is much smarter than you think or give them credit for.

Everyone recognize a leader when they see one. That is just a million years of evolution playing out. Most People understand and recognize the odds Modi must have fought and won to stake his claim for PM. They also see how Rahul has parachuted as congress head by clinging on to his mother's pallu. Even the simple village folk's see and understand this.

Sure people love to crib and blame. That does not mean they are eternal pessimist or are losers in real life. It is just how they blow steam.

There are Leaders being born and demonstrating leadership in all walks of life. It is a continues process and it never ends. Just because you do not follow one or do not see one does not mean they do not exist.

As to the last point, all it takes is one man. History is filled with such one man who made a difference. But that is a generic comment, I do not expect Modi to do miracles. He has not demonstrated such great intellect or strength of character to make me expect fantastic things, but enough to expect great things from him. As you said, optimism did not kill anyone 'yet'.

Sure. As I've said before, I don't have rigid preconceptions on anyone. If you have enough ammo to point out that Gandhi and NaMo share a lot of similarities in behavior/character, I'll take that!

I do not indulge in such silly games. But as long as you get the point, it is fine. The next time you feel the urge to compare Hitler and Modi, also consider to compare Gandhi and Modi too. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

 

[Indischer]

^fair points, but I still feel you are giving too little credit to the intelligence of the common voter these. days.
let me put it this way, if the mainstream politicians (including Namo) fail to deliver, phenomenon like AAP will only get stronger.

And since when does the strength of India's social and ethical fiber stands on politicians' shoulders?

have faith in the citizens mate, no two bit politician is capable of doing what you are fearing.

As I've pointed out, BJP and NaMo have already polarised our society before. What's the guarantee they won't do it again?
I too agree that Politicians are not beacons of morality or ethical values, but to willfully install someone who's accused of heinous crimes and whose complicity/tacit support to riots is highly suspect as Prime Minister solely on the basis of his promise of economic prosperity, is unbecoming of our collective wisdom.

 

[Dillinger]

I think you give far too little credit to the public. The Aam Admi is much smarter than you think or give them credit for.

Everyone recognize a leader when they see one. That is just a million years of evolution playing out. Most People understand and recognize the odds Modi must have fought and won to stake his claim for PM. They also see how Rahul has parachuted as congress head by clinging on to his mother's pallu. Even the simple village folk's see and understand this.

Sure people love to crib and blame. That does not mean they are eternal pessimist or are losers in real life. It is just how they blow steam.

There are Leaders being born and demonstrating leadership in all walks of life. It is a continues process and it never ends. Just because you do not follow one or do not see one does not mean they do not exist.

As to the last point, all it takes is one man. History is filled with such one man who made a difference. But that is a generic comment, I do not expect Modi to do miracles. He has not demonstrated such great intellect or strength of character to make me expect fantastic things, but enough to expect great things from him. As you said, optimism did not kill anyone 'yet'.

Well he has made large land acquisitions very simple in Gujarat, something which personally benefited me...so there is always a silver lining come what may.

 

[Abhishek_]

As I've pointed out, BJP and NaMo have already polarised our society before. What's the guarantee they won't do it again?
I too agree that Politicians are not beacons of morality or ethical values, but to willfully install someone who's accused of heinous crimes and whose complicity/tacit support to riots is highly suspect as Prime Minister solely on the basis of his promise of economic prosperity, is unbecoming of our collective wisdom.

i thought we had the collective wisdom of considering people innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Indischer]

I do not indulge in such silly games. But as long as you get the point, it is fine. The next time you feel the urge to compare Hitler and Modi, also consider to compare Gandhi and Modi too. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

The day Modi starts a satyagraha to preserve Hindu-Muslim unity instead of a riot in Muslim neighbourhoods, I swear I'll compare him with Gandhiji. Till then, comparisons with Hitler will do just fine.

i thought we had the wisdom of considering people innocent until proven guilty.

Why did the Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan resign in the aftermath of the Tsunami and Fukushima disaster in 2011? What was his crime and would he ever be convicted of it?

Why does our own opposition demand the Railway Minister's resignation after any major Rail accidents? Are they directly responsible for such a disaster?

Accountability is the price to pay if one is ready to occupy the highest office of the State. If he's the CM and could do nothing for 3-4 days as riots raged on, what difference does his presence command then? Given the nature of the riots, it's quite clear that it could not have been stoked and sustained without political patronage. As I've said before Jagdish Tytler is innocent too. But many in Delhi know better.

 

[Abhishek_]

Why does our own opposition demand the Railway Minister's resignation after any major Rail accidents? Are they directly responsible for such a disaster?

^^And a resignation does what exactly?

Accountability is the price to pay if one is ready to occupy the highest office of the State. If he's the CM and could do nothing for 3-4 days as riots raged on, what difference does his presence command then? Given the nature of the riots, it's quite clear that it could not have been stoked and sustained without political patronage.

yes he mismanaged the riot, but I feel the guy has successfully served the people post the riots. I don't see Mr. Tytler doing anything worthwhile.

As I've said before Jagdish Tytler is innocent too. But many in Delhi know better.

so do people in gujarat. And just like you, I'm a believer in collective wisdom and hence believe in gujarati people's verdict.

 

[adwityagrata]

The day Modi starts a satyagraha to preserve Hindu-Muslim unity instead of a riot in Muslim neighbourhoods, I swear I'll compare him with Gandhiji. Till then, comparisons with Hitler will do just fine.

Narendra Modi to hold his last Sadbhavna Mission fast today | NDTV.com

Ahmedabad: Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi will observe his final 'Sadbhavna Mission' fast at Ambaji in north Gujarat today.

Mr Modi, who has so far held 32 fasts under Sadbhavna Mission, has chosen the temple town of Ambaji to end the series of his day-long fasts.

 

[Indischer]

^^And a resignation does what exactly?

It at least indicates that one is ready to hold oneself accountable and perceives it as his failure, sitting as he/she was, in the highest office of the state/ministry.

Here, you have a man under whose watch more than 1000 people(more than 2000 as per unofficial estimates) were killed and who refuses to even apologize for the riots(It's not a case of Hindus apologising, but him specifically). I'm not sure men like him will own up to anything that might go wrong in future either.

 

[Abhishek_]

It at least indicates that one is ready to hold oneself accountable and perceives it as his failure, sitting as he/she was, in the highest office of the state/ministry.

Here, you have a man under whose watch more than 1000 people(more than 2000 as per unofficial estimates) were killed and who refuses to even apologize for the riots(It's not a case of Hindus apologising, but him specifically). I'm not sure men like him will own up to anything that might go wrong in future either.

i personally see a mere resignation as utter BS and a cop-out. You made a mistake, now you must work to rectify it.
Could Modi have done better, absolutely yes. But in the same vein, I believe in the combined wisdom of the gujarati people. If they have been satisfied with what he has delivered since, who am I to complain.

 

[adwityagrata]

It at least indicates that one is ready to hold oneself accountable and perceives it as his failure, sitting as he/she was, in the highest office of the state/ministry.

Here, you have a man under whose watch more than 1000 people(more than 2000 as per unofficial estimates) were killed and who refuses to even apologize for the riots(It's not a case of Hindus apologising, but him specifically). I'm not sure men like him will own up to anything that might go wrong in future either.

If he is really responsible for the death of a 1000 people why should a mere apology be enough ? He should be hanged

So why not seek the death penalty for him ?

 

[Indischer]

Narendra Modi to hold his last Sadbhavna Mission fast today | NDTV.com

Ahmedabad: Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi will observe his final 'Sadbhavna Mission' fast at Ambaji in north Gujarat today.

Mr Modi, who has so far held 32 fasts under Sadbhavna Mission, has chosen the temple town of Ambaji to end the series of his day-long fasts.

Thanks. Were these fasts or mere political rallies? If they were fasts, were they undertaken in 2002? Were these fasts-on-to-death to calm the raging riots? If not, I shall still take it that the man has begun to show some repentance at least.