Ambala to station first squadron of MMRCA fighters

[SamantK]

25 % Tell me , what do you know about economy and ours in particular to even remotely put it as such ? Are you aware what would happen if that was the case ?

Seems like you are a citizen of a state which does not know where its economy is going..
As I said before, im not the one who knows everything but when I speak I have some thing to back it up unlike you who cannot yet backup your statements..

have a look at this then..

from --> http://www.finance.gov.pk/budget/Budget_in_Brief_2012_13.pdf

Of the total expense of 2.6 trillion rupees:

Debt servicing is 925+215 billion, 44%

Defense budget is 648.2 billion, 25%:

Defense Affair and services = 545 billion
Military Pensions = 98 billion
PAEC = 40 billion
Defence Division = 3.2 billion
Defence Production Division = 2 billion

There goes nearly 70% of the budget.

Explained by Vcheng from here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...assets-wont-secret-anymore-5.html#post3525226

Answer me, do you know anything about your own budget?

Are you aware what would happen if that was the case ?

Tell me what is happening which you though was not happening?

 

[Secur]

Seems like you are a citizen of a state which does not know where its economy is going..

Oh please ! You said 25% of Pakistan's GDP is spent on defense When it is only 3-4 at the very max ! If such was the case , I guess we wouldn't have any money to spend on anything else ...

 

[Ammyy]

Oh please ! You said 25% of Pakistan's GDP is spent on defense When it is only 3-4 at the very max ! If such was the case , I guess we wouldn't have any money to spend on anything else ...

Still its too much for country where GDP growth rate is 2-4 %

 

[SamantK]

Oh please ! You said 25% of Pakistan's GDP is spent on defense When it is only 3-4 at the very max ! If such was the case , I guess we wouldn't have any money to spend on anything else ...

Ok not the GDP, replied in a hurry.. now you tell me how did you come at the 3-4 %

Also, the budget only has 23% allocation for everything else... its pretty nothing..

 

[Secur]

What is more funny is that they still don't have any concrete plan on how to replace the 241 fighters given in that list. Plus they have another 80 Mirage-5. So totally they have to replace 320 fighters and fighter-bombers within this decade.

Positive points of PAF:
1: Some 70, F-16 Block 52 and F-16 MLU.
2: 500 Amraam order.

Disadvantages and/or Major Googlys of PAF are:
1: Lack of strategic depth.

2: Stand-off capability based on Sub sonic missiles and American civilian GPS signals(not the military one). They don't have access to GLONASS like we do.

3: No plan on how they are going to replace 320 obsolete fighters in their inventory. They keep saying they will replace them with JF-17 but they have no money even for block-2 or a trainer version. They have still not given any order for the engines for the next 50 batch of RD-93.

4: Their Chinese AWACS and the Swedish AWACS are not compatible with each other. American fighters can't datalink with Chinese AWACS and vice versa.(Their Ground base C4 and early warning radars are pretty well known to the IAF. They would be the first to go. Hence the reason why AWACS comes into play.)

5: Their F-16s and AMRAAMS come with heavy restrictions. They may even have bugs in em. The U.S was making some noise that they will not be used against India before. The main reason why PAF is going for FC-20 even though they wont get much capability the F-16s already give them.

6: Their JF-17s still hasn't achieved BVR capability. JF-17s still don't have Helmet Mounted Sight(HMS).

7: Uncertainty regarding FC-20. Money and Cost problems(they are priced at $45 each, too much for bankrupt pak).

8: No Medium and High Altitude SAM cover for their airbases. They only have Manpads and short range sams.

9: No plan on how they are going to replace 320 fighters in their inventory. No time frame, no cost considerations, absolutely NOTHING!

10: PAF took a risk that when they started inducting JF-17. They thought the PLAAF would also start showing interest and they would start sharing the burden of funding the integration cost of weapons, trainer version, upgrades, etc... etc... But PLAAF is too smart and left PAF high and dry. So now PAF has to fund everything. This is starting to show with no trainers and delay in weapon integration.

11: And Finally............ MONEY!!!!! Their entire economy is laughable.


Have I left out anything?

1) I would have understood if you had counted it as a disadvantage for PA and not PAF in particular since missile can hit anywhere the globe ...

2) Again you aren't updated ... Pakistan has signed up an agreement with China for usage of military and civilian level Beidou which at the present covers all of China and major parts of Indian subcontinent ... Savvy ?

3) We never had any money yet we always kept you at bay ... There are plans for replacing those fighters and JFT Block II isn't that far now ... Wait and watch !

4) The first part is true and the second applies to both ... How can that be that you can take out our sites and we do not know how and where to retaliate in kind ?

5) Yes they do , but it doesn't matter in a war ... Nobody's going to ask US permission and there's simply nothing that can prevent those aircraft to perform their mission ... Bugs to track ? Yes agreed but to render them useless , nothing but a myth !

6) JFT hasn't achieved BVR capability ? Tell me when was the last time you visited the JFT information pool ? We have now integrated Brazilian MAR-1 on it and you are talking if it has BVR capability ... Ignorance is bliss , huh ?

7) Soon the fog will clear just like it all always does and leaves you in astonishment ... We never had money for anything be it - Nuclear weapons , missiles , AWACS , Tanks , MANPADS etc ...

8) Yes , it is a problem but there are unconfirmed reports about HQ-9 and knowing how our defense equipment are procured in total radio silence - I will rather believe that ...

9) Why do you think we started the whole JFT program in the first place ?

10) PLAAF never made any promises and there are other countries which designed aircrafts for others and never put them in service themselves ... So ? I think if we are buying the aircraft , we have to bear the cost ... Yes , a BVR capable fighter which offers more than decent capabilities and allow the PAF to field it in large numbers due to being low cost left PAF high and dry Your so called knowledge is laughable ! About time , you check the JFT thread ...

Ok not the GDP, replied in a hurry.. now you tell me how did you come at the 3-4 %

Also, the budget only has 23% allocation for everything else... its pretty nothing..

Why so desperate you always are to click the " Reply with Quote " link ? It is official ! Where do you think I would get it ?

 

[punnu83]

Ambala Cantonment have headquarters of 2 Corps and probably some of the following troops placed there ……….

Some elements of 1 armoured division
Probably two armoured brigades
One air defence brigade
One or two artillery brigades and some elements 40 artillery division including its headquarter
A lot of 2 Corps support troops and echelons

Lot of artillery troops, some armoured troops and a whole lot of support troops and echelons – not a lot of fire power as you have stated.

Not a lot of 2 corps support but 2 corps one of the three strike corps is here. That itself is scary firepower especially with the recent changes and inductions and near future inductions. And on top of that it has a huge presence of airforce base here aswell which will be more lethal in next few years.

 

[punnu83]

Notorious, abingdonboy has said most of what i wanted to say!

Apart from that, the a good reason why PAF was always able to hold more than its own in previous wars was IAF's inability to field its numbers. It had numbers, but was never able to field them against Pakistan to its full advantage in a short duration.

That is now substantially changing with newer bases coming up, and existing bases being upgraded to handle all types of jets. Now before you start saying PAF is doing this too, the point is PAF even earlier fielded most of its jets from most of its bases, IAF did not. That is changing now.

IAF is getting the ability to field its numbers. This alone will be one of the greatest factors.

Secondly, in terms of NCW, IAF too is doing all that you mentioned and then some. Abingdonboy has listed most of these aspects.

Thirdly, just because PAF has AEW&C, doesnt mean it shoots first in a war. The shots are taken using the planes which are limited at standoff ranges

PAF/PA has very very limited quality SAM coverage with very few high end SAM systems used to protect ultra-high value targets. Compared to this, IA/IAF are faring much better. This alone will mean PAF will not get to do a lot of fighting in Indian territory as was done in old days.

IAF is also fielding/planning to field more EW dedicated aircrafts which initself is a major advantage.

Lastly, if its about coverage, there is a good probability IAF will have Pakistan's airspace fully monitored in another decade or so. This is primarily because of Pakistan's short depth and secondly by newer sensors India is purchasing/building.

This apart, the Su's are going to get upgraded. The deals for Mirage 2000 to be upgraded to Mirage 2009 has already been signed, along with MiG 29 to be upgraded to MiG 29SMT along with the Jags.

When it comes down to it, money does play the biggest role. The gap in the budgets of the two airforces has never been wider, and it is showing on the force composition and acquisition. The gap between IAF/PAF has never been this big in history.

And with US withdrawing military support to the extent it used to, and the two economies on different trajectories, the gap will only widen.

I think you guys are missing one big thing here is Indian navy. Once it will have total superiority in pakistani waters than what effect it will have on land and air warfare.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I think you guys are missing one big thing here is Indian navy. Once it will have total superiority in pakistani waters than what effect it will have on land and air warfare.

Exploring this line of attack, many seasoned reporters and members here on PDF have said the best the PN can hope to do is keep the IN at bay for the first few days of a conflict and that is only if the entire fleet isn't sent away to friendly nations for its own protection. Hence after this period the IN can open up a second front for India and can provoke the PAF to have to divert their precious resources away from mainland India as once the IN ACCs get within striking range of the Pakistani coast their embarked high perform e fighters are going to cause havoc on Pakistan. This has got to be a major concern for Pakstani military planners.

 

[Abingdonboy]

By 2020 the IN will have the ability to deploy 45-60 high performance 4.5++ gen fighters off the cost of Paksitan and after this period the numbers of fighters operated by the IN will shoot up. This will mean the PAF has to deploy pretty much half their fighter force to defend their coast m

 

[punnu83]

By 2020 the IN will have the ability to deploy 45-60 high performance 4.5++ gen fighters off the cost of Paksitan and after this period the numbers of fighters operated by the IN will shoot up. This will mean the PAF has to deploy pretty much half their fighter force to defend their coast m

You are right when we are comparing two airforces capabilities in near future, pakistan tend to forget that in next 5 to 10 years India will be operating 2 or 3 floating airbases around. This capability is nearly impossible to match for pakistan provided given resources

 

[Gessler]

You think I confronted you just because you had less posts than me ? Cm'on grow up ! Why so insecure ? Good if you have more knowledge than me ... I merely responded to your claim that FC-20 is yet to fly which is wrong even now and just asked you to research more ... FC-20 is merely an export variant based on J10 A or B ( Most reports put it as J 10 A ) whatever it is , both have been flying for a long time now and possibly even J10 B will achieve maturity in the intended time frame in which PAF wants these aircrafts ... We aren't talking about a whole new aircraft here which you possibly assumed when you first made that post !

Wrong again ! The Su-30 had been operational for decades ... Just because you added some Israeli avionics and ordered specific customization which is a norm for every defense purchase doesn't make it a whole new aircraft , does it ? Besides that is not even a comparison since whatever we will asking the Chinese to include will be procured from CAC , nothing Western ! You better not talk about Pakistani defense deals You just do not know the way they are done and when and how they are disclosed ... Our officials are very tight lipped about those ... I told you to research our previous ones ...

Yes , your estimation is indeed good for fanboys but the strategist in AHQ are no fool to buy an aircraft if they do not think it can match the competition ...

Stop using all your tactics in your bag so that you can wriggle your way outta this.

Talk to the point instead.

My point since post#1 is - the FC-20 (the version intended for PAF) has never
flown. And it stands!

If you want to prove otherwise, then do so by posting me pics of this FC-20 (with
all the equipment pak wanted it to have, if any changes), but mind you, don't give
me J-10B pics I already have them. So lemme explain it to you without smileys,
the J-10B is intended as a testbed for trying various tech that would be later implemented
on J-20 (like DSI, AESA radar etc.) there is no factual evidence to believe that PLAAF will
actually induct the J-10B into active service or not. And no one has made it clear
what will be the changes done to the FC-20 version for PAF. Infact, I don't have any
proof to say that the deal for purchase of these fighters is yet signed or not??

Why should china develop FC-20 and fly it when its unsure whether Pak will be able
to buy it or not? China is no fool. Remember even in the ZDK-03 deal when you told
them a few changes need to be made to the plane buying PAF buys it, they said no
and asked for the money first!

The Pakistani version of J-10 (the FC-20) has really never flown. What is flying is
the J-10A and J-10B, the former is tailored for PLAAF-specific requirements and is
worse than F-16C Block-30. The latter is yet a non-production model used only as
a testbed, again for PLAAF's requirements only.

FC-20 is the supposed version of either J-10A or J-10B designed for PAF-specific
requirements, AND THIS VERSION IS YET TO ROLL OUT, LET ALONE FLYING.

I gave you a perfect example - MKI is not flying just because some MKK or MKV
is flying. The real MKI will fly only with the Indian-specific needs and tech, until it
does that, MKI is irrelevent. Get my point? I don't even understand why you need
to bring in Israeli tech,,,who built MKI's RWR? radar computers? signal processors?
even the sidelobes for Mk-3 BARS radar are designed in India.

I beginning to think that the real Secur has gone off somewhere, who is this
neighbourhood child who's got his hands on your computer?

 

[Gessler]

The best way of your deference is delusionize really things never happens.....j10b will say hello to you no later than 2014 in Pakistan. You need your brain checked before you got banned.


The best way of deterance by delusionizing undesired stuff never happens.....j10b will say hello to you no later than 2014 in Pakistan. You need your brain checked before you got banned.

Hey hey hey...why are so desperate to waste your money? Im sure after china
spends big time and money on developing FC-20 version for PAF, the pakistanis will
cancel the order and buy second-hand F-16C from Norway instead.

 

[Wickerman]

If after all this lengthy diatribe, what you mean is that war is not an option - I agree with you.

Secondly, PAF does not need quantitative parity with IAF. I think around 1:3 in hi-tech is appropriate to defend ourselves.

Yes war is not an option. For Pakistan.

For India, war is not a necessity at all. We try to avoid it at all costs.

Also not just quantitatively, but also QUALITATIVELY the IAF is superior. So your ratio is good enough, but given current scenarios, it only means India needs lesser planes to tackle the entire PAF, than what I assumed.

 

[Ping]

1) I would have understood if you had counted it as a disadvantage for PA and not PAF in particular since missile can hit anywhere the globe ...

2) Again you aren't updated ... Pakistan has signed up an agreement with China for usage of military and civilian level Beidou which at the present covers all of China and major parts of Indian subcontinent ... Savvy ?

3) We never had any money yet we always kept you at bay ... There are plans for replacing those fighters and JFT Block II isn't that far now ... Wait and watch !

4) The first part is true and the second applies to both ... How can that be that you can take out our sites and we do not know how and where to retaliate in kind ?

5) Yes they do , but it doesn't matter in a war ... Nobody's going to ask US permission and there's simply nothing that can prevent those aircraft to perform their mission ... Bugs to track ? Yes agreed but to render them useless , nothing but a myth !

6) JFT hasn't achieved BVR capability ? Tell me when was the last time you visited the JFT information pool ? We have now integrated Brazilian MAR-1 on it and you are talking if it has BVR capability ... Ignorance is bliss , huh ?

7) Soon the fog will clear just like it all always does and leaves you in astonishment ... We never had money for anything be it - Nuclear weapons , missiles , AWACS , Tanks , MANPADS etc ...

8) Yes , it is a problem but there are unconfirmed reports about HQ-9 and knowing how our defense equipment are procured in total radio silence - I will rather believe that ...

9) Why do you think we started the whole JFT program in the first place ?

10) PLAAF never made any promises and there are other countries which designed aircrafts for others and never put them in service themselves ... So ? I think if we are buying the aircraft , we have to bear the cost ... Yes , a BVR capable fighter which offers more than decent capabilities and allow the PAF to field it in large numbers due to being low cost left PAF high and dry Your so called knowledge is laughable ! About time , you check the JFT thread ...

1: Your air launched cruise missiles have a range less than 350km. And your land based cruise missiles have a range of only around 700km. So you cannot hit anywhere. Ballistic missiles are only used for a nuclear payload because they have a high CEP compared to cruise missiles(actually even cruise missiles have a slightly big CEP but when compared to ballistic missiles it's much better). You cannot use ballistic missile to hit pin point targets. Also those cruise missiles carry warheads ranging from 200kgs to 500kgs only. You won't be able to penetrate hardened shelters with just such a low payload, so you have to use several missiles for just a single hardened shelter, provided it hits the target with pin point accuracy. If it even misses it's hardened shelter target by even 5m, your multi million dollar missile is wasted.

2: Beidou is only operational within China. It is still not made available outside, yet.

3: We have been hearing this Block-2 since 2 years ago. Face it, you guys haven't requested for engines for the next 50 block-2 JFTs because you cant pay for it. How can you manufacture Block-2 without engines?

4: I accept this, except for the fact it will be much difficult for PAF to take out Indian ground based early warning sites rather than vice versa, because of my point 2 in the previous post. Plus they are heavily fortified with SAM we just procured from Israel.

5: I accept. But then your relations with the U.S would go downhill pretty fast. And who knows, maybe they will even share their tracking data with us. If you don't follow their rules, they play dirty. You already know that they have done underhanded things before, and they will do that again.

6: Yup, they still haven't achieved BVR capability. It is still in testing with dummies carried around. If they did fire off one, then chinese sponsored state media would showcase it as a huge event like they did when JFT fired the short range Air-Air missile. No Band Baja has happened for it.

7: This FC-20 is something we have been hearing from 2005 from Musharraf times. As old as the Indian MMRCA saga. Atleast MMRCA is an open tender with lots of jets competing, but this FC-20 is just one jet which is to be procured. What is taking so long? Answer: You are broke!

8: There are also unconfirmed uncle aunty sources which reports of ICBMs in Pakitans arsenal. Which unconfirmed uncle aunty sources shall we believe? It's better we don't believe any of them - this goes for both india and pak.

9: See point 3.

10: Yes, PLAAF never made any promises, but PAF took a calculated risk. During the initial years after JFTs first flight there were reports after reports in pakistani press of PLAAF interested in JFT and would order 300-400 jets. PAF assumed PLAAF would replace their thousands of J-6 and J-7s with JF-17, but they massively underestimated China's growing economy and PLAAFs resolve. They are going with J-10 and Sukhoi copies through and through eventhough they are costlier. No JFTs for PLAAF. And so no Chinese state funding for JF-17s weapon integration, Trainer version, Block-2 upgrades and so on. You have to pay through the nose for all that.

 

[Abingdonboy]

A shucks, it seems they ran away.