Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat

[Hermione]

That is bias one sees from them from time to time.. but its a matter of national pride which draws more extreme reactions from Indians(including dying from heart attacks at Indian cricket matches).

The video is still there. I just saw it.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

No we dont. It all depends on tactics and counter tactics. However, the leverage of technology and numbers does greatly lead to reduced effectiveness of such tactics.
Now, what I am about to say will sound harsh to many Indian members.. but if they have the sense to read through they will come up with better responses than ones that will lead to trolling and me getting pissed off.

Till recently, the PAF had MORE experienced and better pilots than the IAF in terms of a force ratio. Which means the quality of experience that was going to squadrons and their further training was higher than that which was going into the mainstream IAF squadrons. By this I refer to the ratio of more skilled and conditioned pilots in squadrons.. as an example.. out of 18 pilots in a squadron the IAF would have 5 experienced ones as compared to the PAF having 7 or 8. Does this mean that the PAF has better training or otherwise that we judge it on. NO, what the IAF experienced in the last two decades was the less known result of a booming economy; a booming private airline industry. While there are good private flying schools in India, the finest flying training in India still comes within the IAF. The result was that within the late 90's and early 2000s a certain amount of IAF pilots ..and specifically those who had more than just patriotic ideals and a love for flying in mind.. resigned their commisions in the IAF to head for greener pastures.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pilot unrest in India's air force



Here what I am pointing out is NOT the IAF's facilities or pilots complaints.. but those years of experience that the IAF payed for and trained them for. That experience still exists, that conditioning .. those skills. These got lost to airlines. Now these skills are not just an investment from the IAF on that single officer.. but also to any squadron they are posted to, to any new trainees they interact with and may instruct. While the IAF is slowly going to rectify this by changing criteria of induction and offering incentives.. it has suffered a loss in investment. This is also one of the reasons the IAF avoided the PAF's idea of glitz with female pilots because it knew that our societies are similar in women's position.. and despite all the PR rhetoric.. a woman's place in subcontinent society is different. Once she gets married.. has a child.. the expectations of her family change.. and the investment that an airforce makes(usually in millions of rupees) goes down the drain.

Had a similar phenomenon not occurred within the PAF? of losing experienced pilots? Yes it has.. the co-pilot on the ill fated Airblue crash in 2010 was a topgun .. yet he opted for greener pastures because he saw little future in sustaining his family. However, due to the much smaller aviation industry(and smaller market) in Pakistan in contrast to India..the Pakistani pilots face tougher competition on these pastures.. and additionally.. the PAF has greater monetary incentives for officers(in terms of land holdings) than the IAF.

It is due to such factors, that the IAF currently has lesser skill on its hand than PAF on a relative force level. Eventually though, there will be a reduction on those leaving the IAF and the IAF itself will refine its induction process to ensure that its operational experience skill set and readiness in no longer compromised. When that does happen(and the time is NOT far), the IAF will be a very well balanced force in terms of its men and machines.

When that happens.. depite the induction of JF-17s and F-16s.. unless a conflict lasts less than ten days.. the PAF will eventually be made redundant by the IAF.. both by losses and by denial of places to land and takeoff. Its simple mathematics.. greater technology , numbers.. and a much more evenly matched manpower in terms of experience, conditioning and skill.. along with dithering morale on the Pakistani side.. will lead to a PAF(and eventually Pakistani) defeat.

How are we planning on faring against them ?

Judging by that Exercise we did with the Yanks where the Mirages flew low enough & approached the American Carrier well within firing range or so I've heard - We weren't all too lacking ingenuity either !

NO. 8 SQUADRON'S "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE" SUCCEEDS
1500 HOURS - 30 MAY 1995

Flying a few feet above the Arabian Sea, the two Mirage pilots are impressed by the awesome silhouette of the nuclear-powered Abraham Lincoln as the carrier looms gradually above the sea curvature, dead on the nose. The mission: To penetrate successfully the Carrier Task Force's early warning and perimeter defences and, to deliver a simulated Exocet guided missile attack on "the world's largest warship". The memorable sortie was flown during "Inspired Alert" - a Pakistan-US joint exercise. O.C. No. 8 Squadron, strictly following the ground rules, planned and led a simultaneous multidirectional attack profile against CVN-72, in an attempt to overload its defence. As two of the three Mirage pairs turned away, the lead Mirage carried out a simulated Exocet "launch" from several miles away, without meeting any of the ship's fighters. The Squadron Commander and his wingman later did a friendly fly by at the carrier's side, perhaps just as surprised as the Lincoln's crews, at the missed interception.

Wing Commander Asim Suleiman Leader and O.C. No 8 Squadron
Flight Lieutenant Ahmed Hassan Wingman

 

[Dillinger]

@Oscar Still dealing with opinions defined by platform centrality hunh.

Let them also have the current air-war picture over land and sea too.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

That is bias one sees from them from time to time.. but its a matter of national pride which draws more extreme reactions from Indians(including dying from heart attacks at Indian cricket matches).

i use proxy and had liked the video and i shared it long time back on this forum. Since then the Video is deleted along with @abdulbarijan 's account.

The video is still there. I just saw it.

care to share it then from utube?

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar - You didn't answer my question about those Mobile Air Defenses ?

Which one? Again, lets take it to another thread.

@Oscar Still dealing with opinions defined by platform centrality hunh.

Let them also have the current air-war picture over land and sea too.

Did I not do that someplace.. Im bored doing it again and again. Why dont you do it.. or sancho.. or Sandy.. It'll be refreshing .

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Pakistanisage

what is yr take on this? Considering yr a former AF pilot?

 

[Dillinger]

Which one? Again, lets take it to another thread.


Did I not do that someplace.. Im bored doing it again and again. Why dont you do it.. or sancho.. or Sandy.. It'll be refreshing .

Harsh truths pertaining to both sides can lead to getting lynched. Come on, humor me and educate the rest including Butt sahib.

 

[Hermione]

i use proxy and had liked the video and i shared it long time back on this forum. Since then the Video is deleted along with @abdulbarijan 's account.


care to share it then from utube?

 

[SQ8]

NO. 8 SQUADRON'S "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE" SUCCEEDS
1500 HOURS - 30 MAY 1995
View attachment 17281

Flying a few feet above the Arabian Sea, the two Mirage pilots are impressed by the awesome silhouette of the nuclear-powered Abraham Lincoln as the carrier looms gradually above the sea curvature, dead on the nose. The mission: To penetrate successfully the Carrier Task Force's early warning and perimeter defences and, to deliver a simulated Exocet guided missile attack on "the world's largest warship". The memorable sortie was flown during "Inspired Alert" - a Pakistan-US joint exercise. O.C. No. 8 Squadron, strictly following the ground rules, planned and led a simultaneous multidirectional attack profile against CVN-72, in an attempt to overload its defence. As two of the three Mirage pairs turned away, the lead Mirage carried out a simulated Exocet "launch" from several miles away, without meeting any of the ship's fighters. The Squadron Commander and his wingman later did a friendly fly by at the carrier's side, perhaps just as surprised as the Lincoln's crews, at the missed interception.

Wing Commander Asim Suleiman Leader and O.C. No 8 Squadron
Flight Lieutenant Ahmed Hassan Wingman

That is an example of smart tactics and steel nerves(flying that low isnt exactly easy). However, this was 1995.. almost 15 years ago.. and there has been a lot of progress made in shipborne and airborne radar systems since then. Which means that the effectivness of such tactics and nerves of steel may no longer be as effective.
The RAF too has pulled off similar stunts against the Americans in older aircraft.. and in my conversation with a IN pilots some ten years ago.. they have done the same against either the French or the Russians using SHARs.(sea harriers)...not to mention "killing" their own carrier on an almost constant basis in exercises, much to annoyance of the Ships captain as regardless of them being from his own ship..he did not appreciate his air defence net being proved useless by attacking aircraft

Harsh truths pertaining to both sides can lead to getting lynched. Come on, humor me and educate the rest including Butt sahib.

yeah yeah.. better people try lynching the big game rather than the lemur..his tactic being to watch amused from the sidelines while performing the "Pawan mukt" asan.

 

[Dillinger]

That is an example of smart tactics and steel nerves(flying that low isnt exactly easy). However, this was 1995.. almost 15 years ago.. and there has been a lot of progress made in shipborne and airborne radar systems since then. Which means that the effectivness of such tactics and nerves of steel may no longer be as effective.
The RAF too has pulled off similar stunts against the Americans in older aircraft.. and in my conversation with a IN pilots some ten years ago.. they have done the same against either the French or the Russians using SHARs.(sea harriers)...not to mention "killing" their own carrier on an almost constant basis in exercises, much to annoyance of the Ships captain as regardless of them being from his own ship..he did not appreciate his air defence net being proved useless by attacking aircraft



yeah yeah.. better people try lynching the big game rather than the lemur..his tactic being to watch amused from the sidelines while performing the "Pawan mukt" asan.

Add an eye in the sky and the pilots will get a nasty surprise...had the occasion to talk to someone who's operated along side the hawkeye's, came here since we were having the "all things naval" seminar...his honest assessment was that a Fulcrum/Viper/Mirage headed into a non-permissive environment (Hawkeye on station) would be dead every time.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

That is an example of smart tactics and steel nerves(flying that low isnt exactly easy). However, this was 1995.. almost 15 years ago.. and there has been a lot of progress made in shipborne and airborne radar systems since then. Which means that the effectivness of such tactics and nerves of steel may no longer be as effective.

The question was reguarding ingenuity not tech bro... even in 95 2 mirages were no match against a USN nuclear power AC and its carrier group..

The RAF too has pulled off similar stunts against the Americans in older aircraft.. and in my conversation with a IN pilots some ten years ago.. they have done the same against either the French or the Russians using SHARs.(sea harriers)...not to mention "killing" their own carrier on an almost constant basis in exercises, much to annoyance of the Ships captain as regardless of them being from his own ship..he did not appreciate his air defence net being proved useless by attacking aircraft



yeah yeah.. better people try lynching the big game rather than the lemur..his tactic being to watch amused from the sidelines while performing the "Pawan mukt" asan.

Can you post a few links?

 

[SQ8]

Add an eye in the sky and the pilots will get a nasty surprise...had the occasion to talk to someone who's operated along side the hawkeye's, came here since we were having the "all things naval" seminar...his honest assessment was that a Fulcrum/Viper/Mirage headed into a non-permissive environment (Hawkeye on station) would be dead every time.

Well, there were hawkeyes back then as well.. but things have come a lot far since the old APS-139 radars .. they still had problem with sea clutter from time to time. Additionally, Decoy tactics were used back then. Today.. AEW systems such as the Erieye or the Phalcon rarely miss anything.. and unless the aircraft decides to lower its wheels and drive on the highway on land.. or fix floats .. it will be picked up coming in. Perhaps not as soon as expected.. but enough to warn the Air defence net..

The question was reguarding ingenuity not tech bro... even in 95 2 mirages were no match against a USN nuclear power AC and its carrier group..



Can you post a few links?

But the effectiveness of smart tactics against a 95 era Nimtiz and a 2014 era Nimitz is different.. the latter will be a much lower probability.

And links to which ? the RAF training? you can read about it in ACdre Sajjad Haiders book.. or on the net through a basic search. The IN Sea Harrier pilot or the M2K one is me .. that you need to have relatives in India who are settled in Dubai.. and particularly good manners and knowledge.. along with some excellent Khichra..

 

[sancho]

What reports? the Pushpindar

Not only, but more importantly this one:

Vishnu Som first-hand on what really happened at Red Flag 08

Vishnu Som, Associate Editor and Senior Anchor at NDTV, was the only journalist from India at Red Flag 08, and in that sense, best placed to talk about what happened there...

...Contrary to unsolicited remarks by certain serving US personnel not directly linked to day to day operations at the exercises … the Indian Air Force and its Su-30s more than made a mark during their stint in the United States.For starters … not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down’ in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere … the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially...

Livefist: LiveFist Column: Vishnu Som first-hand on what really happened at Red Flag 08

People often only refer to the video, although that was the most unreliable report of the exercise, from a clearly biased and uneducated source, so no point in discussing that again.

Canards perform a specific function on the MKI.. a function that has been made redundant on the Su-35BM.

But why is it redundant on the Su 35? Because it was part of it's RCS reduction measures and since it still remain to be highly manuverable with it's flight performance and TVC. The Su 30 is the heavier twin seat varient and for that, canards and TVC are both features to increase maneuverability compared to it's sister versions like the MKK, or fighter designs that didn't had either of them (teen series for example).
We see even the same reason why there are reports about J10s superiority against Chinese Flanker versions, thanks to canard design over conventional fighter designs without enhenced features.

Here is also an interesting read of an EF pilot, that explains the advantages and disadvantages of TVC:

...Typically, when time comes to decide how to achieve the required “nose pointing capability” for high thrust-to-weight ratio airplanes three solutions are on the table:

- extremely high short term sustained Angle of Attack values (characteristic of twin tailed airplanes);
- High Off-Bore-Sight Weapons, preferably supported by Helmet Cueing;
- Thrust Vectoring.

Thrust Vectoring is one of the design elements that can contribute to create a certain advantage during close air combat by generating impressive pitch and yaw rates, but only in a limited portion of the flight envelope at velocities well below “corner speed”.

However, Thrust Vectoring can also transform in a few seconds an energy fighter in a piece of metal literally falling off the sky, making it an easy prey for those who have been able to conserve their energy.

Moreover, Thrust Vector operation requires the pilot to “create the opportunity” for its usage, spending valuable time in manoeuvring the aircraft to achieve a suitable condition and managing the activation of the Thrust Vector Control.

If you are “defensive” and your aircraft has Thrust Vectoring, you can possibly outturn your enemy, but that most likely won’t prove to be a great idea: an energy fighter like the Typhoon will conveniently “use the vertical” to retain energy and aggressively reposition for a missile or gun shot. Also the subsequent acceleration will be extremely time (and fuel) consuming, giving your opponent the opportunity to tail chase you for ever, exploiting all its short range weapon array.

If you are “neutral”, when typically vertical, rolling and flat scissors would accompany the progressive energy decay, similarly performing machines would remain closely entangled, negating the opportunity for Thrust Vector activation.

If you are “offensive”, probably stuck in a never ending “rate fight”, Thrust Vector could provide the opportunity for a couple of shots in close sequence. Make sure nobody is coming to you from the “support structure”, otherwise that could be also your last move...

The Aviationist » “Raptor’s thrust vectoring not essential” Eurofighter pilot says in last chapter of the F-22 vs Typhoon saga

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

But the effectiveness of smart tactics against a 95 era Nimtiz and a 2014 era Nimitz is different.. the latter will be a much lower probability.

A 95 era against a 60s mirage... wasnt tht ingenuity at that time itself?

And links to which ? the RAF training? you can read about it in ACdre Sajjad Haiders book.. or on the net through a basic search. The IN Sea Harrier pilot or the M2K one is me .. that you need to have relatives in India who are settled in Dubai.. and particularly good manners and knowledge.. along with some excellent Khichra..

Im talkin abt IN harriers sir ji..

P.S:what is Khichra?

 

[Dillinger]

Well, there were hawkeyes back then as well.. but things have come a lot far since the old APS-139 radars .. they still had problem with sea clutter from time to time. Additionally, Decoy tactics were used back then. Today.. AEW systems such as the Erieye or the Phalcon rarely miss anything.. and unless the aircraft decides to lower its wheels and drive on the highway on land.. or fix floats .. it will be picked up coming in. Perhaps not as soon as expected.. but enough to warn the Air defence net..



But the effectiveness of smart tactics against a 95 era Nimtiz and a 2014 era Nimitz is different.. the latter will be a much lower probability.

And links to which ? the RAF training? you can read about it in ACdre Sajjad Haiders book.. or on the net through a basic search. The IN Sea Harrier pilot or the M2K one is me .. that you need to have relatives in India who are settled in Dubai.. and particularly good manners and knowledge.. along with some excellent Khichra..

Time share + cooperative engagement + inconsequential cover provided by ground clutter (minimal false returns specially in case of sea clutter which is much more difficult to mitigate than ground clutter- wind speed pitching in to the doppler) = LOTS of dead pilots. Quantum leap from what was to what is.