Indian conventional superiority a myth?

[blain2]

I give a simple example .
Since 28th areal engagement , 100% pakistani airspace is closed till today , while only 20% of Indian airspace is closed to commercial traffic .
This is scenario India Visa vis Pakistan in every aspect we are basically five times bigger than u . Result of a direct conflict India and Pakistan is easily imaginable .

Pakistan airspace was restricted. All the major airports are up and running now (except Lahore if I am not mistaken). Obviously this is a cautionary step lest you want to see civilian airliners being downed over Pakistan.

Yes I agree you are larger. We have a healthy respect for your size and resources but at the same time your resources cannot be brought to bear all at one point at the same time against us. You know that and we know that. Secondly, if you do, then Pakistan's escalatory ladder would be proportionally adjusted.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I give a simple example .
Since 28th areal engagement , 100% pakistani airspace is closed till today , while only 20% of Indian airspace is closed to commercial traffic .
This is scenario India Visa vis Pakistan in every aspect we are basically five times bigger than u . Result of a direct conflict India and Pakistan is easily imaginable .

Closing of airspace shows nothing since this isn't some miracle India did. Pakistan closed its own airspace. U entirely missed the point of what I was talking about. My post was about conventional disadvantage of Pak against Indian military. This doesn't mean Pak would lose in a direct conflict with India. In short it would go down like this...
- Both would engage in war
- Pak would initially hold off India
- In a war of attrition, the balance would tip in favor of India due to sheer size of combat assets
- Pak would have to turn to the nuclear threat...bcuz that would be the only option left in the long run(this is why nukes were developed in the first place as a deterrent).
- Both countries would nuke each other...the end.

There is no scenario where u win.

 

[xyxmt]

So PAF decisively defeats the IAF that came with SU-30MKIs with just JF-17s.

Looks like the JF-17 is a bit better than we thought and the Su-30MKI is not as good as imagined.

Indians will now be worried that even the Rafale will not help them as the PAF will just use the JF-17 Block 3 against it. Block 3 will introduce AESA radar, more powerful engine and will surely get the new PL-10 WVR and PL-15 BVR AAMs.

Does what happened on the 27th of February totally change the conventional calculus between India and Pakistan?

If Pakistan thought this was the case they wouldn't have gone as big as they did in return of 8 pine trees, Pakistan has a very strong intelligence network in India (remember honey trapping) and they are fully capable of Indian capabilities.

 

[El Sidd]

Denuclearization of India is essential for long term peace in the region.

the religious ideology of Akhand Bharat is cancerous towards human development in the Region.

the logical conclusion of Indo-Pak conflict is demilitarization of the indian state.

peace out

El Sidd

 

[Cookie Monster]

Its a good aircraft. Let's not understate that fact.
The question is, is it a good strike option? Probably not if you are trying to conduct strikes in stealthily. If you have air superiority then they are fine because it can carry a lot. It has a pretty large radar signature for stealthy strikes but you go to war with the options you have and not what you wish for.

India's solution here would be to bring in Rafale for such strikes with backing from their existing fleet.
Pakistan will have to counter that iA.

Su30 MKI is great in close air to air combat(dogfight) bcuz thrust vectoring + canards. They have demonstrated this ability in many exercises...there was a recent one I remember reading about...where IAF participated in some exercise with US. It's BVR engagements where Su30 MKI has a disadvantage due to its huge size and a full load out would give it an even bigger RCS.

 

[HalfMoon]

To reword the Mark Twains words.

Modi has taken ill prepared, ill trained and ill equipped Indian military to war and removed all doubts on how weak and vulnerable Indian military is.

So PAF decisively defeats the IAF that came with SU-30MKIs with just JF-17s.

Looks like the JF-17 is a bit better than we thought and the Su-30MKI is not as good as imagined.

Indians will now be worried that even the Rafale will not help them as the PAF will just use the JF-17 Block 3 against it. Block 3 will introduce AESA radar, more powerful engine and will surely get the new PL-10 WVR and PL-15 BVR AAMs.

Does what happened on the 27th of February totally change the conventional calculus between India and Pakistan?

Rafale would have been very useful on day one when IAF used Mirages instead.

On day two, IAF badly needed Gripen & FGFA to counter PAF offensive but all they had was MIG-21 and SU-30MKI which could not do the job and failed.

 

[Suriya]

Yes I agree you are larger. We have a healthy respect for your size and resources but at the same time your resources cannot be brought to bear all at one point at the same time against us. You know that and we know that. Secondly, if you do, then Pakistan's escalatory ladder would be proportionally adjusted.

If u talking of all out war , india will through everything at you especially it IAF and Indian Navy .
Also even in the extreme escalatory ladder , the success of rate pakistan would in the same proportion loss of 20% of India and 100% of Pakistan .

As Musharaf wisely said pakistan cant use 1 nuke at india as India would respond with 20 .
Let me tell u secret if Pakistan will fueling it's long range missile then India would a preemptive strikes on you .

 

[Cookie Monster]

We lost Mig 21 that too a SAM over Azad Kashmir airspace , pakistan is talking as if half of IAF got wiped out .
It's not even a warm up .

Yes , in a parallel world where F16 didn't participate in the engagement and India actually lost a SU30 but nobody has whip of it where the debris gone and pilots vanished .

U have proof that Mig 21 was lost to a SAM? Or is it more hot air Indian claims?

If Su30 wreckage and its pilot is what u need as proof then we need F16's wreckage and pilot as proof.

If u talking of all out war , india will through everything at you especially it IAF and Indian Navy .
Also even in the extreme escalatory ladder , the success of rate pakistan would in the same proportion loss of 20% of India and 100% of Pakistan .

As Musharaf wisely said pakistan cant use 1 nuke at india as India would respond with 20 .
Let me tell u secret if Pakistan will fueling it's long range missile then India would a preemptive strikes on you .

And how did u come across that juicy secret?

 

[UKBengali]

If u talking of all out war , india will through everything at you especially it IAF and Indian Navy .
Also even in the extreme escalatory ladder , the success of rate pakistan would in the same proportion loss of 20% of India and 100% of Pakistan .

As Musharaf wisely said pakistan cant use 1 nuke at india as India would respond with 20 .
Let me tell u secret if Pakistan will fueling it's long range missile then India would a preemptive strikes on you .

Dude, India does not have a nuclear arsenal 20 times as large as Pakistan - they are roughly equal in the 1-200 warhead range by outside estimates.
In a nuclear war, both countries will cease to exist as functional entities. India being less damaged would be irrelevant as it would split into it's constituent parts.

This thread is about the conventional balance and we should get back to that

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

If u talking of all out war , india will through everything at you especially it IAF and Indian Navy .
Also even in the extreme escalatory ladder , the success of rate pakistan would in the same proportion loss of 20% of India and 100% of Pakistan .

As Musharaf wisely said pakistan cant use 1 nuke at india as India would respond with 20 .
Let me tell u secret if Pakistan will fueling it's long range missile then India would a preemptive strikes on you .

Sure you can. You simply forgot to do it on wednesday which is why you got battered and humiliated by a 7× smaller nation......

You havn't even seen 1% of what Pakistan is capable of....................if you think I am bluffing then stop talking and come try us.........but alas you have proven time and time again that indians are all talk and no REAL action, nothing more........

Dude, India does not have a nuclear arsenal 20 times as large as Pakistan - they are roughly equal in the 1-200 warhead range by outside estimates.
In a nuclear war, both countries will cease to exist as functional entities. India being less damaged would be irrelevant as it would split into it's constituent parts.

This thread is about the conventional balance and we should get back to that

That's pretty much based on 2010 estimates. Pakistan as of 2018 has MORE than enough nukes to completely wipe india of the face of the planet.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Remember what happened during Israel and middle East war? Israel won with clear dominance instead of being small in size both land as well as population and not to forget their military size ...

It's quality and technology that matters ... With good economy and better gadgets we can easily out smart them ...and not to forget what our religion teaches us ... 313 Vs 1000 well equipped ...

As a Muslim we believe that victory comes from ALLAH
Besides good to see rapid modernization of navy ..if we compare what they had and what they have on order ..there is some serious thought process going on within the ranks of navy .. although the quality of Chinese submarines is yet to be seen ..but on paper 4 frigates 8 subs and 4 corvette on order is a good jump

In airforce we just need one more platform in 4.5+ generation category with 54 in number i.e. 3 squadrons and we will be good to go

As of now we need to work on economy everything else will automatically fall in place

I think we need 2 Squadrons of J20 and 3 Squadrons of J10 or equivalent and we are good to go.
If JF 17 III comes close to the capabilities of J10, we should be covered for equal to J10 5/8 squadrons in the future.
We also seriously have to look at our requirements for bombers, Mirages are getting very old, we need their replacement very quickly.

What we need is something like J20 probably 3 to 5 squadrons, then we would be unbeatable in our area, except China off course. So the strategy should be to bring JF 17 III as much close to the capabilities of J10 in multi role and then acquire perhaps 3 Squadron of J20 as quickly as possible.

A more powerful Navy and we would be firmly placed as 4th most powerful nation on the Planet Earth.

What we also need is to eliminate from our national discourse all the corrupt politicians like Butt brothers and their children, Zardari and his children, Diesel, Chaudhry brothers, Altaf Hussain, ANP cabal etc.etc.

If one thinks logically Nawaz in last 5 years and before him Zardari had caused Pakistan unlimited damage and brought us to close to collapse. They are as much our enemies as Indians are. We have to keep an eye on all of our enemies, internals and externals.

 

[ziaulislam]

I give a simple example .
Since 28th areal engagement , 100% pakistani airspace is closed till today , while only 20% of Indian airspace is closed to commercial traffic .
This is scenario India Visa vis Pakistan in every aspect we are basically five times bigger than u . Result of a direct conflict India and Pakistan is easily imaginable .

Imagine the consequence if IAF follows IsAF and shoot down a civilian carrrier

Second airspace is opened since yesterday
Third india will be loosing alot from diversions affecring countries down.the way till thailand

Lastly we should ban indian airlines untill situation improves (actually improves)

If u talking of all out war , india will through everything at you especially it IAF and Indian Navy .
Also even in the extreme escalatory ladder , the success of rate pakistan would in the same proportion loss of 20% of India and 100% of Pakistan .

As Musharaf wisely said pakistan cant use 1 nuke at india as India would respond with 20 .
Let me tell u secret if Pakistan will fueling it's long range missile then India would a preemptive strikes on you .

The way IAF behaved i doubt we will need any nuke

The key to any conflict will be PAF and IAF

Doesnt matter how many tanks and destriyers you have as long as opposition airforce in intact you will be screwed with barrage of cluster ammunition and antiship missiles

This is what israel learned and we should keep in mind

I think we need 2 Squadrons of J20 and 3 Squadrons of J10 or equivalent and we are good to go.
If JF 17 III comes close to the capabilities of J10, we should be covered for equal to J10 5/8 squadrons in the future.
We also seriously have to look at our requirements for bombers, Mirages are getting very old, we need their replacement very quickly.

What we need is something like J20 probably 3 to 5 squadrons, then we would be unbeatable in our area, except China off course. So the strategy should be to bring JF 17 III as much close to the capabilities of J10 in multi role and then acquire perhaps 3 Squadron of J20 as quickly as possible.

A more powerful Navy and we would be firmly placed as 4th most powerful nation on the Planet Earth.

What we also need is to eliminate from our national discourse all the corrupt politicians like Butt brothers and their children, Zardari and his children, Diesel, Chaudhry brothers, Altaf Hussain, ANP cabal etc.etc.

If one thinks logically Nawaz in last 5 years and before him Zardari had caused Pakistan unlimited damage and brought us to close to collapse. They are as much our enemies as Indians are. We have to keep an eye on all of our enemies, internals and externals.

Establishment cannot allow incompetence like that..policies of those people were ridiculous

Easier way to judge that is by loking at business community ..you will not see a single person who didnt praise the reform pacakage..

Process is slow because of fiscal reasons(no money) but what question is what were PMLN and PPPP doing for last 10 years..they got perfectly fine economy.? PPPP didnt even needed IMF they simply needed adjustments


Corruption is one thing, it can be over looked but incompetence ....look at Bangladesh hussiana is corrupt but not incompetent

 

[xyxmt]

they have more secret weapon also called jaguar which they claim paksitan eater . nazer nhi aya phir time per

they did not fly it because its a secret and dont want their secret out

 

[ziaulislam]

Even the current crisis was "artificially created"

 

[Trango Towers]

PAF needed some shakeup as they were becoming circus lions, Thanks to Modi he provided opportunity to re-test theory of Quality vs Quantity (Men & Machines both).

Thats unfair.....they have been training day and night for this. When the hour came they did their duty. We should all salute them all. Even the guy that excahange a cup of tea for a mig 21