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Pakistan air force superiority over Indian air force in all wars?

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i must say , a lot has been assumed on a bunch of you tube vids. :)
well while i am not entire clear about the 65 air war (have not read much about it from credible sources) one cant dispute the 71 war.

as for post #9 i would ask him to enlighten us what his knowledge on the subject as to how 50 odd(i am assuming thats the number) PAF fighter will succeed against 300+ BVR equipped fighter of the IAF.
 
It's not just the amount of BVR fighters but also the fact that more advanced jets (MMRCA, Tejas and FGFA), AWACS (Phalcon, DRDO AWACS), trainers, choppers (Apache/Mi-28s, Mi-17s, Chinooks/Mi-26s, LCH, Dhruv, etc.), tankers (IL-78MKI/A330 MRTT) and transport planes (C-17, C-130J-30s) are going to be inducted in the near future. To add more, IAF has access to space-based assets.

The PAF is only looking to induct more J-10s and JF-17s, that's it. Nothing that will give it a technological advantage over the IAF.

OK lets Agree PAK 4 times powerfully then INA….with all nuke weapons that have…:coffee:
PAK Total population Min 20cros
IND Total Population Min 100cros
PAK destroy 4x20Crors peoples in India = 80crors.
IND destroy 20crors peoples in Pakistan = 20crors.
IND still exist …..with remaining 20 crors peoples.

And what about PAK ?????:azn:

So think about it.....

So my frens….WAR is not the solution..dont compare it with weapons…..
My request is to close this Thread..
Thank you,
 
It's not just the amount of BVR fighters but also the fact that more advanced jets (MMRCA, Tejas and FGFA), AWACS (Phalcon, DRDO AWACS), trainers, choppers (Apache/Mi-28s, Mi-17s, Chinooks/Mi-26s, LCH, Dhruv, etc.), tankers (IL-78MKI/A330 MRTT) and transport planes (C-17, C-130J-30s) are going to be inducted in the near future. To add more, IAF has access to space-based assets.

The PAF is only looking to induct more J-10s and JF-17s, that's it. Nothing that will give it a technological advantage over the IAF.

OK lets Agree PAK 4 times powerfully then INA….with all nuke weapons that have…:coffee:
PAK Total population Min 20cros
IND Total Population Min 100cros
PAK destroy 4x20Crors peoples in India = 80crors.
IND destroy 20crors peoples in Pakistan = 20crors.
IND still exist …..with remaining 20 crors peoples.

And what about PAK ?????:azn:

So think about it.....

So my frens….WAR is not the solution..dont compare it with weapons…..
My request is to close this Thread..
Thank you,

word of advice mate , please do not talk of mass murder so frivolously.
 
Pakistanis, stop living in the past. You couldn't gain a single inch in Kashmir after repeated attempts. Goes to show how superior you are.
 
^^^lol !@Windjammer



If that's the case I strongly suggest PA and PN should renamed as PAF and fight the next war with India as part of PAF .

May be we should also introduce such doctrines as cold start......if nothing it keeps the fan club happy. :laugh:
 
Understandably, as in any war, both parties will lay claim to victory, hence a neutral partyu is probably the most reliable source to judge the outcome. This is how the world media reported on the 1965 war.


SUNDAY TIMES, London, September 19, 1965.


"Pakistan has been able to gain complete command of the air by literally knocking the Indian planes out of the skies if they had not already run away.
Indian pilots are inferior to Pakistan's pilots and Indian officer's leadership has been generally deplorable. India is being soundly beaten by a nation which is outnumbered by a four and half to one in population and three to one in size of armed forces".


Peter Preston, The Guardian, London.
September 24, 1965.


"One thing I am convinced of is that Pakistan morally and even physically won the air battle against immense odds.
Although the Air Force gladly gives most credit to the Army, this is perhaps over-generous. India with roughly five times greater air power, expected an easy air superiority. Her total failure to attain it may be seen retrospectively as a vital, possibly the most vital, factor of the whole conflict.
Nur Khan is an alert, incisive man of 41, who seems even less. For six years until July he was on secondment and responsible for running Pakistan civil airline, which in a country, where now means sometime and sometime means never, is a model of efficiency. He talks without the jargon of a press relations officer. He does not quibble about figures, immediately one has confidence in what he says. His estimates proffered diffidently, but with as much photographic evidence as possible, speak for themselves. Indian and Pakistani losses, he thinks are in something like the ratio of ten to one.
"The Indians had no sense of purpose, the Pakistanis were defending their country and willingly taking greater risks. The average bomber crew flew 15 to 20 sorties. My difficulty was restraining them, not pushing them on".
" This is more than nationalistic pride. Talk to the pilots themselves, and you get the same intense story".



Patrick Seale, The Observer, London.
September 12, 1965.


"Pakistan's success in the air means that she had been able to deploy her relatively small army___ professionally among the best in Asia___ with impunity, plugging gaps in the long front in the face of each Indian thrust.
By all accounts the courage displayed by the PAF pilots is reminiscent of the bravery of the few young and dedicated pilots who saved this country from Nazi invaders in the critical Battle of Britain during the last war".



Roy Meloni, Correspondent of ABC,
September 15, 1965.


"I have been a journalist now for 20 years and want to go on record that i have never seen a more confident and victorious groups of soldiers than those fighting for Pakistan right now.
"India is claiming all out victory, i have not been able to find any trace of it. All i can see are troops, tanks and other war material rolling in a steady stream towards the front.
If the Indian Air Force is so victorious, why has it not tried to halt this flow?
The answer is that it has been knocked from the skies by Pakistani planes. These Muslims of Pakistan are natural fighters and they ask for no quarter and they give none.
In any war, such as the one going on between India and Pakistan right now, the propaganda claims on either side are likely to be startling, but if i have to take bet today, my money would be on Pakistan side.
Pakistan claims to have destroyed something like one third of the Indian Air Force, and foreign observers, who are in a position to know say that the actual kills may be even higher, but the PAF authorities are being scrupulously honest in evaluating these claims. They are crediting PAF only those killing that can be checked and verified from other sources.


Everett G Martin, General Editor, Newsweek,
September 20 1965.


"One point particularly noted by military observers is that in their first advances the Indians did not use Air power effectively to support their troops. By contrast, Pakistan, with sophisticated timing swooped in on several Indian bases and destroyed dozens of planes without any resistance from the Indians.
By the end of the week, it was clear that the Pakistanis were more than holding their own".


INDONESIAN HERALD,
September 11 1965
.


"The chief of Indian Air Force could no longer ensure the safety of Indian air space. A well known Indian journalist, Frank Moraes, in a talk from All-India Radio also admitted that Indian Air Force had suffered severe losses and it was no use hiding the fact and India should be prepared for more losses.........".

whats the use of selective news report?
one thing was very clear at the end of 1965 war: PAKISTAN LOST THE WAR HORRIBLY
 
Now the truth of all these BS propaganda by Pakistanis: here what happened during 1965 war:

PAF realised the importance and played psy ops game in the most spectacular manner whereas, IAF and the Indian Government neglected it. As a result the IAF was discredited in the air war. The truth was far from what was projected by the PAF. Since PAF was at its exalted best and the IAF at its nadir in psy ops in the 1965 war, it will be instructive to examine this aspect in greater details.

One good place to start this examination is review of General Mohammad Musa’s book “My Version – Indo-Pak War of 1965”. General Musa was the Pakistani Army Chief during this war. His book of less than 100 pages has lot of quotations of western correspondents mostly in praise of Pak armed forces and denigrating Indian performance. One of them alleges that the Indian Government did not permit foreign correspondents within 100 miles of the front. So when Pakistan was currying favours with the journalists by going out of their way, PAF Air Chief Nur Khan, went one step further.

To quote Brig AR Siddiqui – Editor Pak Defence Journal, “After the war Air Mshl Nur Khan made a full-length feature film with defence funds titled – ‘No Greater Glory’ in English and ‘Kasam Us Waqt Ki’ in Urdu. Released in end 1969 both movies flopped badly. Subsequently the Air Mshl hired the services of a British journalist John Fricker…The Air Mshl stole the limelight in the narrative as well as the visuals.” This in the issue of No 7-8, 1994. John Fricker, was an aviation and military reporter for the magazine ‘Aeroplane’.

Fricker was commissioned by the PAF Air Chief to write a book on PAF which Fricker did and titled it, “Battle for Pakistan – The Air War of 1965”. The book got published only in 1979, fourteen years later. One wonders why so late? It is alleged that Fricker had difficulty in finding anyone to publish it. Since the book was not published earlier Fricker wrote an article titled, “30 Seconds Over Sargodha” and it was published in the ‘Aeroplane’ magazine. In this article it was claimed that a Pakistani pilot Squadron Leader Mohammad Alam shot down five Hunters in 30 seconds over Sargodha. The author came across this article in 1975 as a Flying Officer in a fighter squadron. My query to my boss, was forwarded to the Air HQ and was replied. The reply classified the claim as false. As per the IAF, the PAF did shoot down two Hunters on 7 Sept. The third Hunter in a different formation was lost later when its engine malfunctioned. But Air HQ did not deem it fit to contradict Frickers claim in public. It was left to Shri Pushpinder Singh to refute Frickers claim in Vayu III/1988.

“Battle for Pakistan” is a book eulogising PAF and its erstwhile Air Chief Nur Khan. The author, though supposed to be a military aviation reporter, quotes claims of Nur Khan which are preposterous and defy all experiences and lessons of air power history till then. To illustrate, some pronouncements of the book are listed below with comments:

Air Superiority. PAF won air superiority within two hours of its pre-emptive on the evening of 6 Sept.

Comment. At the end of 6th Sept PAF had claimed destruction of about 16-18 aircraft. India admitted to losing 14 aircraft while shooting down three Sabres on 6th out of the 16 Sabres that came for attacks and two more in Chhamb earlier. IAF still had 452 aircraft left. So the claim of air superiority is nonsense and bogus.

Air Supremacy. PAF won air supremacy at the end of 8th Sept that is within 48 hours.

Comment. Air supremacy implies inability of opposing air force to fly and cause any interference whatsoever. IAF flew more than 3000 sorties after 8th Sept and also shot down 10 PAF aircraft also after 8th Sept. Hence, this claim too is unsustainable. That fact that PAF continued to fly 70 sorties of air defence per day for rest of the war to guard against IAF strikes proves the point amply. PAF and Pakistan pursued their propaganda war in extreme crass ways.

To a reader less informed on the complexities of the air war the propaganda churned out might have seemed true.( :P ) More so when the other party was not coming out of its side of the story. For instance Air Cmde Jamal Hussain writing in Pakistan’s Defence Journal of Apr 2 claims ‘Excellence in Air Combat – PAF’s Forte’. He states that both in 1965 and 1971 war PAF achieved a kill ratio of over 2:1 in air combat missions over its adversary. What he does not tell the reader is that PAF fighters in air defence configuration were attacking the IAF’s strike aircraft heavily laden for strike mission. If this is considered then 2:1 ratio is actually incorrect. Again what he does not tell the reader is that PAF’s air defence aircraft were shot up by IAF’s strike aircraft like HF-24, SU-7 and Hunters quite a few times in 1971 war. Even in 65 War Hunters shot down 7 Sabres. While talking of air-to-air kills and PAF’s propaganda that PAF pilots were very good in air combat, it is worth mentioning an important point regarding guns carried in fighters of the IAF and the PAF. The F-86 Sabre had six guns of .5 inch Calibre.

In 1965 the only two offensives of the Pak Army were at Chhamb and Khem Karan. In both these sectors PAF did not win the air battle. At Chhamb both air forces continued to operate, with IAF halting Pak advance well short of Akhnoor. Therefore, the PAF could not claim air superiority here. At Khem Karan it was the IAF, which was more active. At Lahore, on the critical day of 6th Sept where Indian Army had launched an offensive PAF had an upper hand. During the rest of the war majority of the PAF air support sorties for Pak Army were over its own territory whereas majority of IAF’s air support sorties were over Pak territory. So actually IAF had the favourable air situation over the battle area of concern during most of the war. In their respective territories both air forces were by and large free to operate. On the balance it was the IAF, which had greater control of air than the PAF. Of course IAF lost more number of aircrafts, a result of its larger number of offensive sorties over enemy territory, but its attrition rate was lesser than that of the PAF’s. A causative analysis of IAF & PAF losses provides a better perspective rather than relying just on numbers.

This is what really happened.and here u have Pakistanis who have zero knowledge in maths or logic let alone Air combat discussing air warfare. U have some one dig out newspaper columns in some western newspaper saying few gr8 things about PAF but conveniently leaving the reports in the same newspapers on how stupid and foolish Pakistanis were in 1965 war.
 
All wars? The only war we openly surrendered was 1971. We kicked Indian anus in 1965. But indian runs to the united nations who declare a ceasefire. We would have had the victory otherwise

But we havent surrendered yet, for that we havent been defeated yet by u... :)
 
All wars? The only war we openly surrendered was 1971. We kicked Indian anus in 1965. But indian runs to the united nations who declare a ceasefire. We would have had the victory otherwise

Victim Of Pakistani Propaganda ? Try A Natural Source Next Time.
Regards
 
So according to a particular brilliant member here, we should take western media's report at face value of whatever it might b.....e right???
 
I have seen videos on YouTube that show the dominance of Pakistan air force over the iaf. In the war of 1965 Pakistan shot down 119 Indian jets while losing 28 of their own. Even in other wars such as the Russia afghan war Pakistan shot down 7 Russian jets while losing none of their own. Or the y kippur war when Pakistan shot down Israeli jets while losing none of their own. Is the air force the strongest military branch in the country? And does anyone know if these statistics are true?

Dekho Miya...Tum phir se Jhuth Bol rahe ho....Khyali Pulaw na khao....Haad Ho Gae...
 
typical form of pakistani history as i read by pakistanis all over the internet

1948 = we liberated kashmir (the correct terminology should be "captured")
1965 = we won the war (it was a stalemate though with india in winning position)...coz we were able to defend lahore (when the ceasefire was signed before attack on lahore)
1971 = east pakistan was far away from pakistan thats y we lost (oh ya sure...all the attacks on western front were epic fails AND wasnt it pakistan's strategy that "DEFENCE OF THE EAST LIES IN THE WEST"??...apply wrong strategies and then blame the opponent

1984 = falsely claim a piece of barren land which belonged to no1 and take advantages and revenue without consulting neighbours and then again cry when neighbours forcefully snatch it (siachen)

1999 = it was successful coz we were able to intrude and inflict damage...no1 talks about being beaten back and retreating (complete contradiction to 1965 war)
 
So according to a particular brilliant member here, we should take western media's report at face value of whatever it might b.....e right???

No, just utilize your ingunity to find out how we managed to acquire certain airframes and displayed them as war trophies.

Ov_Gnat02.jpg


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Footnote : since we are discussing "Pakistan air force superiority over Indian air force", i'll leave the cheap banter to the Indian members, who are keen to digress to every level in a vain effort to avoid subject at hand.
 
No, just utilize your ingunity to find out how we managed to acquire certain airframes and displayed them as war trophies.

Ov_Gnat02.jpg


forceland.jpg


1759714499_89b2d5ca4f.jpg


Footnote : since we are discussing "Pakistan air force superiority over Indian air force", i'll leave the cheap banter to the Indian members, who are keen to digress to every level in a vain effort to avoid subject at hand.

shows the inferiority complex of Pakistanis..kuch 20-30 planes giraye...aur to kuch kar nahi paye..

Lets put them on show and pat our selves and fool Pakistani public into thinking that PAF is great..but forgetting that Pakistani planes also have crashed in India and not in mars..Indian dont need to take pictures of few aircrafts models and use it in debate on who was having air superiority during the war..

really childish posts!!:no:
 
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