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PAKISTAN: Sectarian killings -- the nexus between Saudi Arabia and the army

I read, I laughed, I cried and now, I don't know whether you are serious or not -- Is that the condition to seek an end to this sectarian warfare, to call Ayatullah a fraud? Ok, He's a fraud, they all are - Happy? WILL YOU NOW STOP JUSTIFYING THE KILLING OF INNOCENT PAKISTANIS? I know you realize the truth of this thread, and I would request a focus on that and not on blame shifting.

Like all other organs of the state you are only suggesting that as long as one institution or agency can point the finger at the other, their behinds will be safe - is that what you really started out to say ?

Armed Forces and it's agencies should have been the first to accept responsibility, instead we have a circus of one institution after another, saying "we did our job" -- and the end result??


So sorry to see that you are turning a horrible horrible situation into the source of infighting among intellectuals. This is precisely the terrorists want.

Your reaction is very similar to the one of AIDS infected defensive cells in the body. They too start attacking the good cells. and Thus ultimately destroying the whole body.



Read Murtaza Haider's article from few days ago. Him being a Shia, is saying that army operation is not the answer. In fact army itself is not the full answer to this problem.

I agree with him. Armies are not designed to conduct operations against civilians.

They are to be used only for short term dosage where they can face off armed insurgents.


Even then success is seldom guaranteed. haven't we seen the operations in the NW areas the FATA? Haven't we?


Please read my post again instead of jumping to conclusions.

It deeply saddened me to see your response.

Sorry to say
 
Your reaction is very similar to the one of AIDS infected defensive cells in the body. They too start attacking the good cells. and Thus ultimately destroying the whole body. Please read my post again instead of jumping to conclusions. It deeply saddened me to see your response.
Sorry to say

The thread is about the armed forces being infiltrated and the source of that infiltration - keep your focus
 
The thread is about the armed forces being infiltrated and the source of that infiltration - keep your focus

Yep. That was indeed the focus of my original post.

That armed forces are getting impacted because our societies has been infiltrated with Islamist-AIDS from Ayatullahs and Saudi Mullahs.

Hope this clarifies things.

Our army doesn't live on mars. They live among us the civis.


peace
 
I invite all readers to check out this video - this was on a national news show - and this will be crushed, but the people are awakening - for Pakistanis and for Indians, this will be an eye opener, for those of our Arab contingent, perhaps they too will awaken, if only to realize that the time is not far when the "jig" will be up and time for serious thinking whether what is being done is being done in their name or whether they will stand against it, and with Pakistan, both these choics have consequences.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/political-videos/236393-source-lashker-jhangvi-funding.html#post3949149
 
Costly appeasement
From the Newspaper | I.A Rehman | 1 day ago 4


THE past week has left the Pakistanis grappling with two serious issues: they cannot protect the Hazara Shias of Quetta, nor can they resist the armed extremists. The result of the failure to resolve these issues cannot be contemplated with equanimity.

On Jan 10 more than 100 Hazara Shias were killed in an area dominated by them but where people belonging to other communities were also living. Barely five weeks later, the terrorists attacked them in their exclusive settlement — Hazara Town — and caused the death of over 90 innocent citizens. The beleaguered community was again driven to despair, delaying the burial of the dead and staging sit-ins.

As usual the latest outrage has been strongly condemned by the government and leaders of political parties. Their cliché-ridden rhetoric carries little force because they only condemn the foul deed and lack the guts to unmask its perpetrators beyond describing them as terrorists. They refuse to come out of their make-believe world.

They know the reason why the Shias are being killed and yet they keep pretending to be ignorant of it. They are aware of the identity of the culprits and yet they keep organising missions to find out who they are. The naivety of the country’s ruling elite is matched fully by the Quetta Hazaras themselves when they ask for their city to be handed over to the army.

After the January bloodbath, the Raisani ministry was sacked. That the Hazara Shias have fared no better under governor raj proves that the culprits are stronger (or enjoy the patronage of elements that are stronger) than elected ministers and the bureaucratic apparatus headed by the governor. That confirms that a mere change of guard is not going to end the Hazara Shias’ plight. The stark reality is that those who can deal with the culprits do not wish to do so.

The anti-Shia pogroms in Quetta raise many critical questions and somebody has to answer them: how has Balochistan been captured by forces of religious intolerance? Why did all those engaged in hunting down the Baloch nationalists not notice the mushrooming of religious seminaries across the province or were these centres encouraged as an antidote to the Baloch yearning for autonomy?

Are the Hazara Shias of Quetta being punished for not being landlords or for being more interested in education than others, or for holding somewhat liberal views on women’s rights?

Do these Hazaras have any jobs or businesses and enterprises left with them that their less capable rivals covet? Has any serious effort been made to find out why a large number of Hazara Shia young men have tried to seek asylum in Australia and elsewhere? Has Punjab’s government done anything to stop the export of terrorists to Balochistan? Besides targeted killings there are several aspects of the Hazara Shias’ ordeal that need to be addressed.

Some people might not see any nexus between the killing of Shias in Quetta, or in Gilgit-Baltistan, Fata and Karachi, and to some extent even in Punjab, and the extremists’ challenge to the state of Pakistan in the tribal belt and in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

A brief reflection will be enough to find that the two issues are interlinked. Also it will be realised that the decision of last Friday’s all-parties conference to negotiate with the Taliban will increase the threat to the country’s democratic premise and the pluralist complexion of its society.

This conference was not sponsored by the state but its call for negotiations with the militants carries as much weight as state policy because it enjoyed the backing of the parties in power and in opposition both, and they have, unwittingly perhaps, helped the forces that are battling the state. Any appeasement of the extremists now will inevitably lead to a costlier surrender by the state.

The factors that impelled the ANP to convene this conference as well as its need for a safe playing ground during the general election can easily be appreciated. It might also be under pressure to heal the intra-Pakhtun split. But it is extremely doubtful that it will gain anything by embracing the Taliban at this point in time.

This does not mean a rejection of the principle of solving all problems through negotiations. A time may come when talks with militants could be mutually beneficial but as matters stand today Pakistan will only court disaster by entering into a dialogue with the militant forces. The reasons are many.

There is an open disagreement between Islamabad and the Taliban on the timing for cessation of armed confrontation and terrorist raids. The former’s demand that a ceasefire should precede negotiations has been turned down by the latter, which has declared that a ceasefire could only follow successful conclusion of negotiations. More importantly it is difficult to see what the Taliban can offer.

The authors of the conference declaration apparently believe they have acquired a safety cover by stipulating that any settlement with the Taliban will be within the limits of the constitution. The Taliban will agree and argue that they only want the constitutional requirement of enforcing the Sharia to be honoured. None of the leading political parties in the country today will contest this.

The sticking point will be the militants’ claim that they alone have the right to interpret the Sharia. But to accept any group’s monopoly over interpreting the Sharia will be as contrary to the Sharia as anything else.

The militants have repeatedly declared that they have a religious duty to kill all renegades and heretics and they cannot stop attacking the Pakistani state and anyone who is aligned with their enemies because that would amount to abandoning a duty ordained by belief. Their minimum demand could be a revival of the Zia regime. The only party that has to yield anything is the hapless state of Pakistan.

Negotiations with militants will mean making Pakistan’s constitutional order subject to the outcome of a theological disputation. How will the concept of Pakistan as a federal democracy, governed by elected representatives, survive?

It is possible that some politicians think they will be able to manage the militant hardliners by giving them inconsequential concessions. They will be as thoroughly disappointed as the authors and defenders of the Objectives Resolution have been. The policy of appeasing the obscurantists has never worked throughout the last six decades and will not work now either.

The pressure on the state in the north and the killing of the Hazaras in Balochistan constitute a pincer movement against the Pakistan state by a force that begins by claiming custodianship of the true Islam and goes on to call for a theocracy as an unavoidable consequence.

There can be no peace in any part of the country unless all energies are directed towards raising the bulwark of a pluralist democracy and leaving the people free to follow their beliefs in private life.

(Costly appeasement | Opinion | DAWN.COM)
 
This reality, namely that of the nexus between Saudi Arabia, Wahabi terrorism and the Pakistan Army, has to be exposed and presented more frequently in the Pakistan media -- and there is no doubt that it will happen, though, we must be prepared that the Saudi Wahabi have seemingly unlimited funds and of course have the US and Israel as their protectors.

Have we seen the end of Wahabi terrorism in Pakistan? certainly not! Reforming The Ethos of Pakistan Army's is key to ending this terrorism and these fissures in the social fabric of Pakistani society.

We have already seen and it should by now be obvious not only how vicious these pro-Wahabi organizations are but their power, that newspapers do not even dare to print the names of these organizations and simply identify them as "Banned organizations". Now why would Pakistani media behave in this way? Because they recognize that there is an even more powerful organization behind these Wahabist terrorists.

Change must begin with the Pakistan army.

This thread is nothing but hindustanys attempt to do army bashing - and that too as guests posting on a Pakistani forum which accepts these people and allows them to post hastily written garbage.

Pakistan and KSA have a joint officers program and intel sharing between both is going on for years. To suggest that the army is instrumental in promoting Wahhabism in Pakistan or anything to the tune of that is mere sensationalism.

I can name at least one serving COAS who in fact defied Saudi advice for Pakistan to participate in something the Saudis openly supported (Pakistan sending contributing forces to Iraq in 1990) and that too despite the fact that Saddam supported terrorism in Baluchistan Province.

When sensationalism begets stupidity, you know you won't have a debate worthy topic


Now to answer some points you made:


a.) you conveniently forget the millions strong Pakistani diaspora in KSA, some of whom return and bring a newly learned culture with them (some are born in KSA and have never even lived or step foot in Pakistan)

b.) the Army is a product of the people it serves, as it comes from the people itself....they aren't martians from outer space, nor are they from the bourgeoisie elitist class as they were in the 1950s and 60s.

c.) it is the responsibility of the GOVT, not the Army -- to ensure that all foreign-funded religious schools are not preaching anti-national or "exteme" (self-serving) interpretations of the Quran. The Army's job is just to defend the borders from the enemy(s)

d.) with regards to the latter part of your post in which you say:

We have already seen and it should by now be obvious not only how vicious these pro-Wahabi organizations are but their power, that newspapers do not even dare to print the names of these organizations and simply identify them as "Banned organizations".


here's a link to The Nation -- a report of an attack by LeJ -- in which the name of the organization as well as members wanted for questioning was listed

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-n.../20-Sep-2012/banned-outfit-behind-twin-blasts

and i've heard the banter about Nation being "right-wing" and "pro Army" many a time!


here's another

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-n...aheSahaba-leader-shot-dead-in-Khairpur-police
 
I invite all readers to check out this video - this was on a national news show - and this will be crushed, but the people are awakening - for Pakistanis and for Indians, this will be an eye opener, for those of our Arab contingent, perhaps they too will awaken, if only to realize that the time is not far when the "jig" will be up and time for serious thinking whether what is being done is being done in their name or whether they will stand against it, and with Pakistan, both these choics have consequences.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/political-videos/236393-source-lashker-jhangvi-funding.html#post3949149

I mean the video is nice.

The TV show finally moves away from platitude and tries to bring some documents.

However I disagree with his assertion that Pakistan somehow is center of everything oil and trade.

Sure we can get our share and make money.

But China using KKH to transport 1000s of tons of goods is just not possible logistically.


So let's go easy on wishful thinking about gawader etc.


The real message from the TV show is that Pakistanis need to realize one thing. Gulf Mullahs and Irani Ayatullahs are the devils when it comes to Pakistan.

However Pakistanis should be the one kicking @rse of these devils. Responsibility is ours.

Ayatulleeeees and Gulf Mulllllesssss will continue their satanic work, we can't stop them. The only thing we can do is denounce them and refuse to follow them.

peace
 
The fault lies with Us Pakistanis and our huge willingness to take down our pants tie them to our head and dance in the middle of the town on any given chance .

Our Low self esteem Mullahs and their followers are happy to suck onto Iranian and Arabian traditions then accepting their own , both sides are rotten right to their cores . One is Jubilant to Dress up like a Iranian clown mullah and other dies to impress his Arabian Masters .

While in the eyes of their Arabian and Iranian masters their value remains the same as that of a Used Tampon .
 
The fault lies with Us Pakistanis and our huge willingness to take down our pants tie them to our head and dance in the middle of the town on any given chance .

Our Low self esteem Mullahs and their followers are happy to suck onto Iranian and Arabian traditions then accepting their own , both sides are rotten right to their cores . One is Jubilant to Dress up like a Iranian clown mullah and other dies to impress his Arabian Masters .

While in the eyes of their Arabian and Iranian masters their value remains the same as that of a Used Tampon .

:rofl:

pretty angrily stated! though i'll have to admit that actually there is some truth to this,
 
The fault lies with Us Pakistanis and our huge willingness to take down our pants tie them to our head and dance in the middle of the town on any given chance .

Our Low self esteem Mullahs and their followers are happy to suck onto Iranian and Arabian traditions then accepting their own , both sides are rotten right to their cores . One is Jubilant to Dress up like a Iranian clown mullah and other dies to impress his Arabian Masters .

While in the eyes of their Arabian and Iranian masters their value remains the same as that of a Used Tampon .


:rofl:

You are the champion.

Well put.

So well put.
 
so. Where is the jawab to MY post



i.e. what is the connection to the Khakis you guys love to bash on? I'll be waiting patiently for a PAKISTANI member here to respond
@FaujHistorian? @muse?
 
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so. Where is the jawab to MY post



i.e. what is the connection to the Khakis you guys love to bash on? I'll be waiting patiently for a PAKISTANI member here to respond



@FaujHistorian? @muse?

Your post #58 in response to Muse's. right?

Pretty good analysis dare I say.
 
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Your post #58 in response to Muse's. right?

Pretty good analysis dare I say.

it's kind of you, but i just want the answer to the question (post #51)

maybe it's my fault due to my limited english but where is the clarification about HOW and/or WHY khakis would have a stake or contributing hand in "promoting" wahhabism culture in Pakistan?


(have we defined yet what is wahhabi? i think there's also confusion on this aspect as well)
 
it's kind of you, but i just want the answer to the question (post #51)

maybe it's my fault due to my limited english but where is the clarification about HOW and/or WHY khakis would have a stake or contributing hand in "promoting" wahhabism culture in Pakistan?


(have we defined yet what is wahhabi? i think there's also confusion on this aspect as well)


No they do not.

As an institution, any army in general, and Pakistani army in this regard is most integrated when it comes to sectarian or ethnic differences.


People who blame Pak army do not understand the realities.

That's all I say on this issue.

Thank you
 
ISI still has Soviet Afghan war officers , who has sympathy with Taliban. So, we can't blame the whole army , but moles are their. Its very strange , when FC got free hand they tear down the terrorist camp in Baluchistan within no time,,,what it means ? .....
 
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