Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[PAFAce]

Ok although of topic but when we launched a bid for our Submarine requirement, why did only the french and the German companies submitted their bids? Why not Chinese? Also what category does a Type 039A Yuan class falls in when compared against a U boat, moreover have they ever been on an offer to PN?

The Germans are world leaders in submarine design. They've been doing it for so damn long! I am not at all disappointed by the fact that the Germans and the French decided to bid. I guess the Chinese just couldn't offer what they were offering. Usually when we go for Chinese stuff, ToT is the deal clincher, but that advantage was neutralized in this case. I'm excited for the Pakistan Navy.

PS: For how long are we going to stay "on the verge" of confirming the deal? We were "95%" done with the deal in November 2008 (according to PN spokesman). It's been 6 months already. Are they using runners to communicate? because if my internet were that slow, I'd get a new one.

Edit:
400 posts!
Boy I write a lot! One more and I beat Lara's record.

 

[sancho]

The Germans are world leaders in submarine design. They've been doing it for so damn long! I am not at all disappointed by the fact that the Germans and the French decided to bid.

That's right Germany is really good when it comes to conventional Subs, even the US are very impressed of German techs in this field, specially after the incident with their carrier.
U214 will be great for PN, never understand why IN went for Scorpene cause the German Sub is better and as far as I know their offer was better/cheaper too.

Congrats for your 400. post btw

 

[mughaljee]

Fellows,
U214 is best in the world. ?
comments pls.

 

[Arsalan]

Fellows,
U214 is best in the world. ?
comments pls.

surely among the best in non-nuclear subs!

improved hull increasing dive depth to 400 m
endurance time of 50 days
AIP system
modren high tech weaponry like the IADS missile and torpedos
the only thing it lacks is the stealth feature like that of type 212!

other specs include
Displacement: 1,700 t surfaced / 1,980 t submerged(GR) / 1,860 t submerged(SK)
Dimensions: length 65 m / beam 6.3 m / draught 6 m
Pressure hull: austenitic steel
Armament: 8 x 533 mm torpedo tubes, 4 subharpoon-capable
Propulsion: low noise skew back propeller
Diesel engines: 2 MTU 16V 396 (6.24 MW)(GR) / 1 MTU 16V 396 (3.12 MW)(SK)
Charging generators: 2 x Piller Ntb56.40-10 970KW
AIP system: 2 HDW PEM fuel cells (240 kW)(GR) / 9 HDW PEM fuel cells (306 kW)(SK)
Electric motor: 1 Siemens Permasyn (2.85 MW)
Speed: 12 kt surfaced / 20 kt submerged
Speed on fuel cells: 2-6 kt estimated
Range surfaced: 12,000 miles (19,300 km)
Range submerged: 420 nmi @ 8 kt (780 km @ 15 km/h)
Range on fuel cells: 1,248 nmi @ 4 kt (2,310 km @ 7 km/h)
Mission endurance: 12 weeks
Submerged without snorkelling: 3 weeks
Operating depth: more than 250 m officially, 400 m estimated
Complement: 5 officers + 22 crew
Navigation radar: SPHINX-D with 4Kw pulse and tactical LPI radar sensor

i hope the post is informative and helpful for you!

can anyone else please provide some comparison between type 214 and scorpeon, kilo or other such subs!!

regards

 

[mughaljee]

arsalanaslam123,
many thanks for this detail, one thing more, what is Scorpio, is this a submarine better then U214 ?(German)
this is old one or new one, / what is this. ?

 

[sancho]

arsalanaslam123,
many thanks for this detail, one thing more, what is Scorpio, is this a submarine better then U214 ?(German)
this is old one or new one, / what is this. ?

I think you mean Scorpene, it's a french sub that the Indian Navy is producing at the moment:

Scorpène class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Type 212 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even these are wiki links, they might help you to get an overview about the subs.

 

[Arsalan]

arsalanaslam123,
many thanks for this detail, one thing more, what is Scorpio, is this a submarine better then U214 ?(German)
this is old one or new one, / what is this. ?

well i guess it is Scorpion class submarines you are talking about as there is no such thing as Scorpio!

so brother scorpion is a diesel engine sub made by DCNS a French company!

it is a newer model than the agosta 90B class subs and is succeeded by marlin class subs! this means they are better than agosta and inferior to marlin generally commenting! no actual comparison of U214 (German) and scorpion (French) is available so we will just discuss there general specs and then compare them with help of other members as well!!

well of the scorpion:
displacement
(with Air independent propulsion AIP) 2000 ton, normal 1700 tones
speed:
20 knot under water and 12 knot submerged
range:
6500 nautical miles when surfaced moving at only 8 knot
550 nautical miles underwater at 5 knot
endurance
50 days
dive depth
some what more than 300 meter

for U214
displacement
1700 tones
speed
12 knot surfaced
20 knots submerged
range
12000 miles (it is more than 6500 nautical miles) surfaced
420 submerged at 8 knot
1248 submerged at 4 knot
endurance
70 days
dive depth
400m

well going through all these fact, it is a clear call! U214 have an edge over scorpion!
it have more dive depth, can stay at sea for more days (70+ days as compared to scorpion’s 50 days), more over it can stay under water for 20 - 21 days continuously, thanks to its superior AIP system.
more over the most important thing is the sonar and here also U214 have a slightest of an edge!
one of its major advantage over scorpion is the ability to fire IDAS missile capable anti-ship, anti-air or land attack missile (great ). U214 can also fire subharpoon missiles ie submarine launched harpoon anti-ship missile!
one other key advantage is its slight stealth ability, the sub features a skew back extremely low noise propeller making it one of the quietest sub in the world!!
it also features hydrogen cell which means it is able to keep floating even with the engines off, thus no sonar signals!!
Speed on fuel cells: 2-6 kt estimated
Range on fuel cells: 1,248 nmi @ 4 kt


thus all in all U214 is clearly the better of the two!
these features mentioned above make U214 one of the deadliest subs around the globe!

I hope this information is helpful to you, don’t forget to hit the thanks button if so

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

well dear mughal
brother as far as I think you wanted the comparison because of the fact that the Indian are having the scorpion, for you intrest,
the Indians have ordered for six scorpion class submarines and out of these the first three lack the very important AIP system which is even present in its precedor agosta 90B class, operational with Pakistan!

 

[mughaljee]

arsalanaslam123,
U got me,
I am asking because of India, and other thing is, i always like German Technology rather then other country.(German has respect in my heart)
always regards
"Jaza Ko Mullah Khair"

 

[MZUBAIR]

As much as I know the deal of U214 is stuck coz of ToT (Transfar of Technology)
issue.
Is there any progress in the deal?

 

[LCA]

As much as I know the deal of U214 is stuck coz of ToT (Transfar of Technology)
issue.
Is there any progress in the deal?

Can u provide link...

 

[Arsalan]

As much as I know the deal of U214 is stuck coz of ToT (Transfar of Technology)
issue.
Is there any progress in the deal?

no not really! it is just being delayed a bit as the turkish governmet wants complete ToT for the sub and the turkish and pakistani deal has been merged to extract maximum profit so if the turkish will get it, ultimately pakistan is going to have it!
even the earlier deal between pakistan and germany was said to be like that that the subs were to be build in karachi so it is a bit confusing that what going on!
as far as i think the case is like that the german pakistani deal consisted of building the subs in pakistan but most of the sophisticated equipment was to be brought from germany and only to be assembled here thus there was no ToT for those parts whereas the turkish now demand a complete ToT!
hope it gets on track soon!
can any other member add to our info!!

regards!

 

[mughaljee]

Complete TOT,
If it happen, i be really really happy.

 

[Arsalan]

Complete TOT,
If it happen, i be really really happy.

well the turkish are working on it and i hope we can get it as turkey do posses influence in NATO countries!
so at the moment it seem to be a thumbs up

 

[sancho]

well going through all these fact, it is a clear call! U214 have an edge over scorpion!

Like I said before U214 is better but won't have an edge, cause both are pretty comparable.

can stay at sea for more days (70+ days as compared to scorpion’s 50 days), more over it can stay under water for 20 - 21 days continuously, thanks to its superior AIP system.

50 days are the same for both with their diesel engines, with AIP you have to add 18 days for Scorpene.

one of its major advantage over scorpion is the ability to fire IDAS missile capable anti-ship, anti-air or land attack missile (great ). U214 can also fire subharpoon missiles ie submarine launched harpoon anti-ship missile!

IDAS is more an defense weapon than an attack, because it's only for short ranges. For long range attacks against ships or surface targets harpoon will be the main weapon for U214.
On the other side Scorpene is able to fire Exocet missiles (anit ship and anti land missile) and should be fitted with Brahmos missiles too.

it also features hydrogen cell which means it is able to keep floating even with the engines off, thus no sonar signals!!
Speed on fuel cells: 2-6 kt estimated
Range on fuel cells: 1,248 nmi @ 4 kt

That's not quiet correct, the hydrogen fuel cell is the AIP (air independent propulsion)of U214, so only the diesel engines are off. The main advantage of it compared to the MESMA propulsion of Scorpene class is, that it has no moving parts which make it maybe the most silent AIP at the moment, also it don't emit exhaust heat which makes it less detectable.