West responsible for extremism: Musharraf

[glyn]

The Arabs were responsible for most of early astronomy and mathematics. Some of their names are in daily use such as algebra and algorithm. Another is alcohol.
Since those early days what has happened since?
Please name one invention that is of benefit to mankind.
Please name one discovery that has been of benefit to mankind.

 

[sigatoka]

1. Virtually every word you said has proved my point.

2. You are in total denial about religion, as is that poster of millions of boring posts KashifAsrar.

3. You just stand there and talk drivel.

4. Your religion has blinded you to truth.

5. It will keep you poor and stupid.

1. How so?

2. I am not, there simply isnt proof that religion causes poverty when econmists have only found correlation between trade/invesment with economic growth.

3. At least i had the courtesy to reply to your points, you have merely engaged in insults.

4. Is it my belief set that has blinded me, or yours that have blinded you? The criticisms that you level are not against me but a mirror before which you stand.

5. I am neither poor, nor stupid and am grateful for it. Whether it is chance, genetics fate or god who will ever know for certainity? Is belief possible without certainity? I believe so.

 

[sigatoka]

1. Name ONE discovery made by your faith.
Name ONE invention of benefit to the world that your faith is responsible for. Just one.

2. No wonder so many of your nations ablest brains flee to the West.

1. When a nation is not operating at the frontier of technology it is not sensible to aim to discover new technologies but rather to acquire, assimilate or steal better technology up to the point where the technology (technical efficiency) is equal to the best. Then you invest in "discovering" new technology. The tremendous econmic growth in China hasnt occured because of discovering new technologies, trade and economic intergration with the world and investment in basic education has allowed it to "assimilate" better technology.

This is not something new, when the U.S. was a new nation they used/stole many technological breakthroughs from Europe up until the point when they themselves reached the frontier.

2. Couldnt that simply be the result of massive differential in incomes between the sub-continent and the West?

 

[sigatoka]

1. Since those early days what has happened since?

2. Please name one invention that is of benefit to mankind.

1. Are you seriously suggesting that the living standards in the Arab world was better 150 years ago than it is now?

The only place in the world that has not benefited from rising living standards is unfortunately sub-sharan africa.

Maybe you are comparing it with the Western living standards. Three large poor arab nations are Yemen, Egypt and Syria. Yemen was in a civil war and one side was communist i think? Egypt and Syria both fell under the economic backward philoshiphy of communism. All three are growing at a reasonable clip with Syria the slowest with around 2.5%. Even being a poor nation Syria has managed to provide piped water and electricity to over 90% of the population which is something India (which is quite close to same level of development) is far from.

The thing is that its not Arab/Muslim/India doing poorly, it is the fact that the West has done so well. However the gap is now beginning to close, not widen. If only Africa could get its act together, there would be a dramatic global convergence in living standards.

2. Are you suggesting that the West discovers innovations for the "benefit" of mankind? This is silly, it discovers for its own sake and if it could, it would prevent the external positive benefits from occuring. The Chinese did the same, so did the Arabs Greeks and Romans.

 

[KashifAsrar]

I asked you before, but you couldn't answer me. Name ONE discovery made by your faith.
Name ONE invention of benefit to the world that your faith is responsible for. Just one.
I feel sorry for those Pakistanis who are having to endure the continuous bombardment of your foolish propaganda. No wonder so many of your nations ablest brains flee to the West.

I think rahman gave you a quite comprehensive list of links. Explore it and widen your 'short horizon'.
By the way this so called 'Foolish Propanganda' is not foolish untill proved wrong. Can you name any ONE POST from this foolish propaganda that make your point even remotely VALID?

If you can not then go and .
Good Luck
Kashif

 

[KashifAsrar]

1. When a nation is not operating at the frontier of technology it is not sensible to aim to discover new technologies but rather to acquire, assimilate or steal better technology up to the point where the technology (technical efficiency) is equal to the best. Then you invest in "discovering" new technology. The tremendous econmic growth in China hasnt occured because of discovering new technologies, trade and economic intergration with the world and investment in basic education has allowed it to "assimilate" better technology.

This is not something new, when the U.S. was a new nation they used/stole many technological breakthroughs from Europe up until the point when they themselves reached the frontier.

2. Couldnt that simply be the result of massive differential in incomes between the sub-continent and the West?

Well said sigatoka. The same phenomenon is happening in my country INDIA, where we are putting the already known technologies to use.
There was a point in 20th Century when the scientific discoveries followed the 'Vertical Pattern'. With the man's quest to utilize these 'Discoveries' to thier benefit the trend now has changed to 'Horizontal Pattern'. Vertical Pattern means there were NEW discoveries and findings most of the time. Horizontal Pattern means that the 'growth and development in the utilizating these discoveries' in various day-to-day usages.
Kashif

 

[glyn]

Of course, the millions who died in Europe within the past 90 years in terrible wars including terrific number of civilains, the gassing of millions of religious minorities didnt happen according to Glyn. By the way, across the Islamic world people can own their homes, their land and be educated.

Speaking to you is like being in a time warp, speaking to some communist. Seizing apon a single fact like religion and blaming it for all the ills of the world. You would have also made a good aid to Hitler, he sure would have appreciated your opinion on exterminating religion starting with the jews.

I would give different reasons to the poverty in India, Pak. and across a large swathe of the muslim world. The largest factor arises from trade restrictions which prevent the diffusion of superior "technology" (technical improvements). The second factor arises from level of savings and hence investment. It makes no difference whether a secular/aethist society like China embraces trade liberalisation/investment or religious nations.

This brings to the next point, does Religion increase restrictions on trade? I dont think so. In fact if a person is stupid enough to do an analysis, they would find no correlation between the two.

Your fixation on education itself is totally wrong, Kerala an India state has extremely high literacy rate (rivalling Western nations) yet it is not the wealthiest Indian state by far. Education is no different from other forms of domestic investment though it is not subject to the same degree of diminshing returns because of positive spillovers. Ignoring other forms of invesment and just focussing on education is itself a mistake.

The industrial revolution started in Britian, due to a quirk some specific factor who knows? But that Europe industrialised quickly was because of close distance and embracing British techniques of production. Nations such as Japan that did prospered, others did not.

Secondly to reach Western levels of living standard quickly requires very high investment levels. Investment is nothing more than deferring consumption, the state (as in Singpore) has taken from one generation and transferred it to another by expropriating citizens income into forced invesment.

What are you talking about the Islamic world? Economic growth is averaging 4.0% (weighted by population). This is much faster than all of the Western world barring the U.S. (which ironically is the most religious Western nation).

Take your ranting elsewhere.




I shall. I joined the forum because I was interested in Pakistan and its defence forces.
I leave because of the ignorance and hatred of the religious bigots who cannot be reasoned with.

 

[sigatoka]

Take your ranting elsewhere.

I shall. I joined the forum because I was interested in Pakistan and its defence forces.
I leave because of the ignorance and hatred of the religious bigots who cannot be reasoned with.

I did not ask you to leave, i only asked to stop your unsupported assertions. The problem is that you seek to introduce religion into all threads even when there are specific threads dedicated to it, you then call those who disagree with your viewpoint bigots and ignorant.

The choice to leave was your own, do not try to blame others for your weakness.