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Egypt K-8 Karakorum trainer for IAF?

Who said we are going to buy Cheap Chinese Junk, when we can get the best on the shelf?

Parlay ji , of course you guys have the best flying coffins money can buy :lol:

the thread starter perhaps missed to post the other paragraphs from the same article, here are some. for full article follow the link in the end

Even as the IAF spends billions of dollars in a global shopping spree for fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, the training of pilots to fly these has been practically stalled since last July. That was when the IAF’s notoriously unreliable basic trainer, the HPT-32 Deepak, was grounded after a horrific crash that killed two experienced pilots. In 17 Deepak crashes so far, 19 pilots have died.

The Deepak, as the IAF has long known, has two major design flaws. When it flies upside-down the flow of fuel gets blocked, shutting the engine; and, since the Deepak cannot glide without engine power for even a short distance, a serious crash in inevitable.


so a fighter trainer when flies upside down, its fuel gets blocked :cheesy: thats really funny. so it means that IAF pilots only train to fly straight and level :rofl:

how long you guys have been flying this death bed BTW? :pop:

Scrabbling for solutions
 
Parlay ji , of course you guys have the best flying coffins money can buy :lol:

the thread starter perhaps missed to post the other paragraphs from the same article, here are some. for full article follow the link in the end

Even as the IAF spends billions of dollars in a global shopping spree for fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, the training of pilots to fly these has been practically stalled since last July. That was when the IAF’s notoriously unreliable basic trainer, the HPT-32 Deepak, was grounded after a horrific crash that killed two experienced pilots. In 17 Deepak crashes so far, 19 pilots have died.

The Deepak, as the IAF has long known, has two major design flaws. When it flies upside-down the flow of fuel gets blocked, shutting the engine; and, since the Deepak cannot glide without engine power for even a short distance, a serious crash in inevitable.


so a fighter trainer when flies upside down, its fuel gets blocked :cheesy: thats really funny. so it means that IAF pilots only train to fly straight and level :rofl:

how long you guys have been flying this death bed BTW? :pop:

Scrabbling for solutions







Well my friend there is one fact u cant deny as we move in the 21 century India is atleast taking pain of upgrading its fleet weather it be trainers or fighters while u guys have fanboys in cyber war

nevertheless there is a saying Actions speak louder than words :sniper:
 
Well my friend there is one fact u cant deny as we move in the 21 century India is atleast taking pain of upgrading its fleet weather it be trainers or fighters while u guys have fanboys in cyber war

nevertheless there is a saying Actions speak louder than words :sniper:

yes i can feel your pain after losing hundreds of jets.

as for moving in 21st century ,does these names sound fimiliar as well ? K-8, erieye, il-78,f-16block-52,f-16MLU ,jf-17 etc etc

for its sheer size and attrition rate , IAF should have gone ahead with trainers many years ago.
 
yes i can feel your pain after losing hundreds of jets.

as for moving in 21st century ,does these names sound fimiliar as well ? K-8, erieye, il-78,f-16block-52,f-16MLU ,jf-17 etc etc

for its sheer size and attrition rate , IAF should have gone ahead with trainers many years ago.


Agreed on the bold part ......lets see the facts along

erieye -- no match for Phalcons

il-78 -- india has more than pakistan can procure

f-16block-52 -- Even if u have 50-60 of Blk-52 just remember u guys are obsessed with it as it is some kind of voodoo plane and will win a war for u single-handedly ..... 100 SU-30Mki are enough we have more than 120 and shall have 270+ eventually


jf-17 --- what can be said i feel its a good cost effective fighter but if u are crippled with the upgrades then its no good in A2A or A2G


This just a summary of things are and will be, a lot can be said abt the future BTW :P
 
Parlay ji , of course you guys have the best flying coffins money can buy

the thread starter perhaps missed to post the other paragraphs from the same article, here are some. for full article follow the link in the end

Even as the IAF spends billions of dollars in a global shopping spree for fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, the training of pilots to fly these has been practically stalled since last July. That was when the IAF’s notoriously unreliable basic trainer, the HPT-32 Deepak, was grounded after a horrific crash that killed two experienced pilots. In 17 Deepak crashes so far, 19 pilots have died.

The Deeap, as the IAF has long known, has two major design flaws. When it flies upside-down the flow of fuel gets blocked, shutting the engine; and, since the Deepak cannot glide without engine power for even a short distance, a serious crash in inevitable.


so a fighter trainer when flies upside down, its fuel gets blocked thats really funny. so it means that IAF pilots only train to fly straight and level

how long you guys have been flying this death bed BTW?

Scrabbling for solutions


Is this your analysis of the current situation :rofl:

Even if our Jet trainer is having problems, that does not mean we should go for Chinese Super Junk trainer??:woot::woot:

Now our policy has changed i.e The Best In the Market for our Lads!!:partay::partay::partay::partay:

india-flag-waving-emoticon-animated.gif
 
Hi guys,

seeing the thread, does this mean our IAF doesn't have basic trainers for ur new pilots. (sorry new to this forum please understand my ignorance)
 
The Indian Air Force’s crisis in training its pilots saw a farcical twist recently when an Egyptian diplomat posted in India helpfully offered Cairo’s assistance. The Egyptian Air Force, he suggested to a senior IAF officer, could send a training team to Hyderabad, along with several of its trainer aircraft, the K-8 Karakorum. Was the Egyptian aware that the Karakorum trainer has been jointly developed by Pakistan and China? Nobody is certain but, since the offer was not followed up in writing, the Indian Air Force (IAF) was spared the embarrassment of having to reply.


Scrabbling for solutions

as far as i can tell, if Egypt is going to sell or lease K8s, permission from both China and Pakistan should have been granted, otherwise, Egyptions will never made such an offer.
 
Cheap Chinese junk keeps the Egyptian pilots from dying in their ab initio training. The same goes for PAF pilots. Unfortunately having access to the best hardware has not resolved IAF's fundamental training problems resulting in considerable potential talent falling victim to attrition.

I can put my money on another bet. The cheap Chinese junk is about as good or better than what you guys assemble in India including MKIs and whatever else you lay a claim to. Calling the Chinese products "cheap junk" most likely makes you feel better, even though the reality is that Chinese manufacturing and R&D is leagues ahead of what you folks are doing in India. The Chinese may have cheaper products, but at least they can fall back upon themselves and fight their own wars. Something that India can only dream about.

Get the logistics and training sorted out before buying best off the shelf. There are more fundamental problems on hand besides the hardware within the IAF.

we got some poltical baboons dude and desicion making is ******* slow so dont worry we will over come our problems:hitwall:
 
Cheap Chinese junk keeps the Egyptian pilots from dying in their ab initio training. The same goes for PAF pilots. Unfortunately having access to the best hardware has not resolved IAF's fundamental training problems resulting in considerable potential talent falling victim to attrition.

I can put my money on another bet. The cheap Chinese junk is about as good or better than what you guys assemble in India including MKIs and whatever else you lay a claim to. Calling the Chinese products "cheap junk" most likely makes you feel better, even though the reality is that Chinese manufacturing and R&D is leagues ahead of what you folks are doing in India. The Chinese may have cheaper products, but at least they can fall back upon themselves and fight their own wars. Something that India can only dream about.

Get the logistics and training sorted out before buying best off the shelf. There are more fundamental problems on hand besides the hardware within the IAF.

Who called chinese planes cheap Junk here ? Did India ask Egypt for those planes ? Good way to rake up non-issue to bash India old-habits die hard.

Stop making allegations against India where it is uncalled for that too without substance.
 
Agreed on the bold part ......lets see the facts along

erieye -- no match for Phalcons

il-78 -- india has more than pakistan can procure

f-16block-52 -- Even if u have 50-60 of Blk-52 just remember u guys are obsessed with it as it is some kind of voodoo plane and will win a war for u single-handedly ..... 100 SU-30Mki are enough we have more than 120 and shall have 270+ eventually


jf-17 --- what can be said i feel its a good cost effective fighter but if u are crippled with the upgrades then its no good in A2A or A2G


This just a summary of things are and will be, a lot can be said abt the future BTW :P

There is no dick measureing competition going on here unless you want to start one. Both countries are doing what they can do best keep their resources.

Despite everything , IAF still has 70% junky Migs of all varaints that are dropping like anything. You just got SU30MKI and have gone out of your minds :cheesy: No doubt its the best fighter in the region BUT not for too long. :no:
 
Is this your analysis of the current situation :rofl:

Even if our Jet trainer is having problems, that does not mean we should go for Chinese Super Junk trainer??:woot::woot:

Now our policy has changed i.e The Best In the Market for our Lads!!

Parlay ji, I think Egyptians are your friends and giving you very right advice. :agree:

So the story goes like this, after crashing some 17 Junky Deepaks and killing numerous pilots, IAF decided to induct Hawk. But IAF managed to crash a Hawk as well within months of its induction

Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer Crashes at Bidar Air Base, India

Then some genius at IAF thought that they will develop an Intermediate jet trainer, but sadly it also met its fate.

IJT+crash+picture+from+Aero+India+2007.jpg



Also not to mention the numerous Kiran crashes that is another flying coffin IAF loves to have. Just another one of the Kiran crashed last month or so during airshow.

Now, the Egyptians are here for your face-saving and rescue. K-8 may be junk according to you but it works. Its doesn’t break unlike the rest of junk that IAF has. :P

I am not sure what’s more pathetic : IAFs Maintenance or the Pilot skill . OR may be both. :undecided::cheesy::
 
Scrabbling for solutions

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi April 5, 2010, 0:22 IST



The Indian Air Force’s crisis in training its pilots saw a farcical twist recently when an Egyptian diplomat posted in India helpfully offered Cairo’s assistance. The Egyptian Air Force, he suggested to a senior IAF officer, could send a training team to Hyderabad, along with several of its trainer aircraft, the K-8 Karakorum. Was the Egyptian aware that the Karakorum trainer has been jointly developed by Pakistan and China? Nobody is certain but, since the offer was not followed up in writing, the Indian Air Force (IAF) was spared the embarrassment of having to reply.




Even as the IAF spends billions of dollars in a global shopping spree for fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, the training of pilots to fly these has been practically stalled since last July. That was when the IAF’s notoriously unreliable basic trainer, the HPT-32 Deepak, was grounded after a horrific crash that killed two experienced pilots. In 17 Deepak crashes so far, 19 pilots have died.

The Deepak, as the IAF has long known, has two major design flaws. When it flies upside-down the flow of fuel gets blocked, shutting the engine; and, since the Deepak cannot glide without engine power for even a short distance, a serious crash in inevitable.


TRAINING OF IAF FIGHTER PILOTS
Traditional
training
model Current
training
model Future
training
model

Stage-1 Deepak
(80 hours) Kiran Mark 1

(20 hours) New turbo-prop
trainer (80 hours)

Stage-2 Kiran Mark 1
(About 60 hours) Kiran Mark 2

(About 60 hours) Sitara IJT

(About 60 hours)

Stage-3 Kiran Mark 2

/Hawk

(As needed) Hawk AJT
(As needed)


The IAF’s concern is evident from the radical methods it is exploring. It now proposes to fit each Deepak with an enormous parachute that opens when the engine shuts off, bringing down the aircraft slowly with the crew still in their seats. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which manufactures the Deepak, is being asked to fit a number of trainers with this Ballistic Recovery System (BRS). It remains unclear whether the Deepak has the structural strength to support a BRS.

Meanwhile, improvisation governs training. After evaluating and ruling out several options — including training IAF flight cadets in civilian flying clubs; or handing over training to foreign contractors on a “Power by the Hour” payment basis — the IAF is now putting absolute rookies into the relatively complex, jet-engined Kiran Mark-1 aircraft for their very first taste of flying. The Kiran, too, has a dubious safety record, with 13 serious crashes over this last decade.

Before the Deepak was grounded, it took 80 hours of basic training on that aircraft before selected cadets — only those found fit to become fighter pilots — graduated to the Kiran Mark-1. The third stage of training was on the Kiran Mark-2; which the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) is gradually replacing. After those three stages of training, IAF pilots graduated to the frontline fighters that they would fly into battle.

“Conducting basic training on a jet aircraft is risky”, admitted a senior IAF decision-maker to Business Standard. “But what choice do we have? The air force must have pilots to fly its planes.”

In fact, the IAF has several good choices, but all of them are some time away. To replace the “Stage-1” Deepak trainer, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has approved the fast-track purchase of 75 aircraft from the global market. Requests for Proposals (RfPs) have gone out to 10 aircraft manufacturers. The hot contenders include the Pilatus PC-21 (Switzerland); Embraer Tucano (Brazil); and the Grob (Germany). Bids are due before April 14, but the aircraft will be delivered only by 2013-14.

For “Stage-2” training, that is, to replace the Kiran Mark-1, HAL is developing an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), the Sitara. The IAF is pleased with the prototype, and has ordered a limited series production of 12 aircraft. Eventually, the air force plans to buy 73 Sitaras, but it will take at least 3-4 years before it is available in the numbers needed for organised training.

Finally, for the “Stage-3” training, the Hawk should have been available in large enough numbers by now. But, production delays at HAL, accompanied by a blame-game between HAL and the Hawk’s vendor, BAE Systems, has meant that just 29 Hawks have entered service against the scheduled induction of 44 Hawks by now.

A much needed strategy for training IAF pilots has now become clear. Before the trainers to implement this plan are obtained, several years of makeshift training lie ahead for the air force.


Scrabbling for solutions
 
I guess India bought some 66 Hawk trainers from UK.In that case why do they need the K-8.
 
I guess India bought some 66 Hawk trainers from UK.In that case why do they need the K-8.

I dont think Providing our technology to our enemies is in the best intrest of Egyptians is it ?
 

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