Do you believe in a/some spiritual Guru/Sant/Saint/Pir/Baba ?

[Jazzbot]

This sentence and your profile picture just perfectly encapsulates the human condition. Khair! Islam is definitely part of Sufism so maybe some Sufis are Muslims and some Muslims are Sufis. For a great part of my life i thought the word Sufis was a plural like when there are more than one Sufiyans involved.

If you or IK believe in Sufism then that's your / his personal decision and I respect that. My admiration of IK is solely for political and cricketing reasons, I don't follow him in all walks of life. In fact, I've been critique of IK's policies on Taliban, Afghanistan etc. on this very forum for a long time, way before he formed any govt.

Lastly, either something is part of Islam or it's not. There is no in-between. Sufism is an innovation and has nothing to do with Islam, infact some of the Sufism stuff is a direct contradiction to basic teachings of Islam. I'll leave it at that.

 

[karmaa]

Saw this thread for what it is but was hoping to be proven wrong. But the hateful Bharati mind is very predictable.

This whole thing was designed to take a dig at Islam.

That 1400 years ago reference, you are challenged to prove wrong what the Creator revealed. It is that exact Criterion that we use to tell a truthful person apart from a liar. The Creator told us who He is and what He is not.

The moment I read the thread title I knew exactly what the intention was behind it. But for the sake of burning the athiests and polythiest with a fire or words, I decided to partake.

Now answer this riddle: Where did the human mind come from?

Science can tell everything .religion can't.

 

[313ghazi]

Saintism / Sufism etc. isn't part of Islam to begin with, so what's the uturn here?

Incorrect.

Imam Abu Hanifa (85 H. – 150 H) “If it were not for two years, I would have perished.” He said, “for two years I accompanied Sayyidina Ja’far as-Sadiq and I acquired the spiritual knowledge that made me a gnostic in the Way.” [Ad-Durr al-Mukhtar, vol 1. p. 43]


Imam Malik (95 H. – 179 H.) “whoever studies Jurisprudence (tafaqaha) and didn’t study Sufism [tasawwafa] will be corrupted; and whoever studied Sufism and didn’t study Jurisprudence will become a heretic; and whoever combined both will be reach the Truth.” [the scholar’Ali al-Adawi , vol. 2, p 195.)


Imam Shafi’i (150 – 205 AH.) “I accompanied the Sufi people and I received from them three knowledges: … how to speak; .. how to treat people with leniency and a soft heart… and they… guided me in the ways of Sufism.” [Kashf al-Khafa, ‘Ajluni, vol. 1, p 341.]


Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (164 – 241 AH.) “O my son, you have to sit with the People of Sufism, because they are like a fountain of knowledge and they keep the Remembrance of Allah in their hearts. they are the ascetics and they have the most spiritual power.” [Tanwir al-Qulub p. 405]


Imam Ghazzali (450 – 505 AH.) “I knew verily that Sufis are the seekers in Allah’s Way, and their conduct is the best conduct, and their way is the best way, and their manners are the most sanctified. They have cleaned their hearts from other than Allah and they have made them as pathways for rivers to run receiving knowledge of the Divine Presence.” [al-Munqidh, p. 131].


Fakhr ad-Din ar-Razi (544 – 606 AH) “the way of Sufis for seeking Knowledge, is to disconnect themselves from this worldly life, and they keep themselves constantly busy …. with Dhikrullah, in all their actions and behaviours. [‘Itiqadaat Furaq al-Muslimeen, p. 72, 73]


Imam Nawawi (620 – 676 AH.) “The specifications of the Way of the Sufis are … to keep the Presence of Allah in your heart in public and in private; to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) … to be happy with what Allah gave you…”[in his Letters, (Maqasid at-tawhid), p. 201]


Ibn Khaldun (733 – 808 AH.) “The way of the Sufis is the way of the Salaf, the preceding Scholars between the Sahaba and Tabi’een of those who followed good guidance…” [Muqaddimat ibn al-Khaldun, p. 328]


Tajuddin as-Subki (727 – 771 AH.) “May Allah praise them [the Sufis] and greet them and may Allah cause us to be with them in Paradise. Too many things have been said about them and too many ignorant people have said things which are not related to them. And the truth is that those people left the world and were busy with worship. … They are the People of Allah, whose supplications and player Allah accepts and by means of whom Allah supports human beings” [Mu’eed an-Na’am p. 190, the chapter entitled Tasawwufl


Jalaluddin as-Suyuti (849 – 911 AH.) “At-Tasawwuf in itself is the best and most honourable knowledge. It explains how to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) and to put aside innovation.” [Ta’yid al-Haqiqat al-‘Aiiyya,p 57]


Ibn Taymiyya (661 – 728 AH) “Tasawwuf has realities and states of experience which they talk about in their science. Some of it is that the Sufi is that one who purifies himself from anything which distracts him from the remembrance of Allah and who will be so filled up with knowledge of the heart and knowledge of the mind to the point that the value of gold and stones will be the same to him. And Tasawwuf is safeguarding the precious meanings and leaving behind the call to fame and vanity in order to reach the state of Truthfulness, because the best of humans after the prophets are the Siddiqeen, as Allah mentioned them in the verse: “(And all who obey Allah and the Apostle) are in the company of those on whom is the grace of Allah: of the prophets, the sincere lovers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous; Ah! what a beautiful fellowship.” (an-Nisa’, 69,70)

 

[313ghazi]

Hi all

Just wondering, for us subcontinent lot, India and Pakistan specifically.

Here in India its fairly common for some to be bhakts (which literally translates to devotees) of some baba type (mostly) guy, but sometimes a lady saint too.

I have in my immediate, and extended family, as well as some friends etc who sorta have this strong thing about some baba/guru.. living, breathing ones, not mythological ones.

The whole holy man thing.. pretty common around here where I am at least.

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Sadhguru, Amma, Neem Karoli baba.. there's many

some say they're charlatans, others swear by them..

aapke waha bhi aisa kuch hai ?

batao

I'm wary of them. Most I believe are just exploiting people for power and wealth.

Within Islam there is a concept called Tassawuf - this is around controlling your desires, which leads to you controlling your thoughts and actions, so you behave in a way which leads you closer to God. Commonly this is known as Sufism.

If anyone has time, search for the Turkish serial called Yunus Emre, it is a good TV series about what Sufism is supposed to be like. It is available on Youtube and was on Netflix too.

Your teachers, (your guide/pir/baba etc) is meant to be someone who can help you self improve. A spiritual personal trainer.

Unfortunately today in Pakistan especially it has been reduced to superstition. We have people selling amulets, we have people claiming to remove black magic and it's influences, people claiming to remove jinn, rich men living in villas and being driven in luxury SUV's funded by the alms given by poor and working class followers. The idea of guidance is practically non existent.

In Pakistan my family live close to the mazar of Mian Muhammad Buksh, a Sufi and a Punjabi poet. His kalam is known around the world, he was a teacher, today if you visit his mazar there is nothing dedicated to education, nothing dedicated to poetry, just langar, bazars and darbar. There is nothing wrong with these things in themselves, but the spirit of what was achieved by the great men buried there, has been lost.

 

[-=virus=-]

The moment I read the thread title I knew exactly what the intention was behind it.

There was none. Just sparking a rando conversation, that was about it.

 

[delta2]

There was none. Just sparking a rando conversation, that was about it.

Yeah right.

 

[Daghalodi]

 

[prashantazazel]

Every region has these fraudsters.

 

[Daghalodi]

 

[KAL-EL]

My belief is in the one true God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Maula Jatt]

I don't expect them to live like fakirs, but many of them don't like live the average joe either. For many of them there is considerable enhancement in wealth and lifestyle (living in huge ashrams, never having to face the difficulties that their own followers have to).

A baba should have a day Job - a plumber, business owner, white collar worker whatever

But baba without a daytime Job is either a fake free loader
Or has no worldly responsibilities for him to relate to your problems

Both cases make him incapable of being your spiritual guide

Even this is ok, as long as they are not preaching simplicity and spartan lifestyle.

Spartan lifestyle is for losers but people should preach simplicity as in your life should have a bigger purpose than "just" earning money for luxurious lifestyle

Okay the baba I was talking about gives career advice or how to handle/ balance work life, family life with spirituallity, earning money to donate for good causes etc
Real cool stuff, that's how a spiritual guide or peer should actually be like not suggesting you to be a loser and worship God all the time, or feed his broke a**

Where I find dissonance is that they keep waxing eloquent about how God is fair and just, how God loves them all, when it is clear that the God loves only the babas and not many of their followers.

God loves all of humanity - and all the hardships come to improve us or to protect us from greater evil

There's the answer from a baba

Nothing that I have heard from any wise guru explains why there is so much suffering in the world, even for people who have done no wrong.

Forget people. Even animals are creation of god. Why do so many of them die violent deaths at the hands of humans and other animals?

I would rather that they admit that God is not perfect, its creation is not perfect and God does not have full control over what has been created.

 

[Daghalodi]

 

[indushek]

I have seen up close, what a supposed teacher can do to corrupt the atmosphere. Thanks to this experience, I have no trust in any of these so called gurus.

Peer pressure keeps things secretive, as one can't speak out in such groups. There will always be politicians in these groups. So hell no to any such groups with a guru or peer or whatever

@VIRUS @KedarT

Please don't peddle these half truths about Eklavya and Karna

BR Chopra Mahabharat isn't the authority

here is the real reason as to what happened with Eklavya

Eklavya was son of Hiranyadhenu who was the army commander of Magadha Prince Jarasandha. Magadha was the enemy kingdom of Kuru. Dronacharya was the teacher of Kurus. So it is obvious that it was his duty to teach all the kuru princes. And as Eklavya belonged to enemy kingdom, dronacharya didn't teach him.

When donacharya and kuru princes found out about Eklavya's skill later, he told them that he practiced alone and made clay idol of Guru dronacharya. Now Acharya knew that eklavya could be a potential threat in future to the kuru kingdom. So he thought strategically and asked for Eklavya's thumb citing reason that he did not ask his permission. Also there are many references in Mahabharat that Eklavya secretly used to watch training sessions of Acharya. It is also a sin.

About Karna

Try to hear what is being said, reading past in present lens is what makes up these myths and understandings there by.

 

[Jazzbot]

Incorrect.

Imam Abu Hanifa (85 H. – 150 H) “If it were not for two years, I would have perished.” He said, “for two years I accompanied Sayyidina Ja’far as-Sadiq and I acquired the spiritual knowledge that made me a gnostic in the Way.” [Ad-Durr al-Mukhtar, vol 1. p. 43]


Imam Malik (95 H. – 179 H.) “whoever studies Jurisprudence (tafaqaha) and didn’t study Sufism [tasawwafa] will be corrupted; and whoever studied Sufism and didn’t study Jurisprudence will become a heretic; and whoever combined both will be reach the Truth.” [the scholar’Ali al-Adawi , vol. 2, p 195.)


Imam Shafi’i (150 – 205 AH.) “I accompanied the Sufi people and I received from them three knowledges: … how to speak; .. how to treat people with leniency and a soft heart… and they… guided me in the ways of Sufism.” [Kashf al-Khafa, ‘Ajluni, vol. 1, p 341.]


Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (164 – 241 AH.) “O my son, you have to sit with the People of Sufism, because they are like a fountain of knowledge and they keep the Remembrance of Allah in their hearts. they are the ascetics and they have the most spiritual power.” [Tanwir al-Qulub p. 405]


Imam Ghazzali (450 – 505 AH.) “I knew verily that Sufis are the seekers in Allah’s Way, and their conduct is the best conduct, and their way is the best way, and their manners are the most sanctified. They have cleaned their hearts from other than Allah and they have made them as pathways for rivers to run receiving knowledge of the Divine Presence.” [al-Munqidh, p. 131].


Fakhr ad-Din ar-Razi (544 – 606 AH) “the way of Sufis for seeking Knowledge, is to disconnect themselves from this worldly life, and they keep themselves constantly busy …. with Dhikrullah, in all their actions and behaviours. [‘Itiqadaat Furaq al-Muslimeen, p. 72, 73]


Imam Nawawi (620 – 676 AH.) “The specifications of the Way of the Sufis are … to keep the Presence of Allah in your heart in public and in private; to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) … to be happy with what Allah gave you…”[in his Letters, (Maqasid at-tawhid), p. 201]


Ibn Khaldun (733 – 808 AH.) “The way of the Sufis is the way of the Salaf, the preceding Scholars between the Sahaba and Tabi’een of those who followed good guidance…” [Muqaddimat ibn al-Khaldun, p. 328]


Tajuddin as-Subki (727 – 771 AH.) “May Allah praise them [the Sufis] and greet them and may Allah cause us to be with them in Paradise. Too many things have been said about them and too many ignorant people have said things which are not related to them. And the truth is that those people left the world and were busy with worship. … They are the People of Allah, whose supplications and player Allah accepts and by means of whom Allah supports human beings” [Mu’eed an-Na’am p. 190, the chapter entitled Tasawwufl


Jalaluddin as-Suyuti (849 – 911 AH.) “At-Tasawwuf in itself is the best and most honourable knowledge. It explains how to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) and to put aside innovation.” [Ta’yid al-Haqiqat al-‘Aiiyya,p 57]


Ibn Taymiyya (661 – 728 AH) “Tasawwuf has realities and states of experience which they talk about in their science. Some of it is that the Sufi is that one who purifies himself from anything which distracts him from the remembrance of Allah and who will be so filled up with knowledge of the heart and knowledge of the mind to the point that the value of gold and stones will be the same to him. And Tasawwuf is safeguarding the precious meanings and leaving behind the call to fame and vanity in order to reach the state of Truthfulness, because the best of humans after the prophets are the Siddiqeen, as Allah mentioned them in the verse: “(And all who obey Allah and the Apostle) are in the company of those on whom is the grace of Allah: of the prophets, the sincere lovers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous; Ah! what a beautiful fellowship.” (an-Nisa’, 69,70)

These are all views of scholars, Islam is not what scholars think or say. Islam is Quran and Hadith, and you failed to share anything from both.

Let's talk about it when you are able to share a Quranic verse or a Hadith on the topic of Sufism or Tasawwuf.

 

[Mentee]

Humans like to have scapegoats ------ to evade certain consequences and religion seems to be at the top of the list cause of the everlasting vibes it generates .


In a traditional sense It's like offering your guru to the cyclop of human imagination for attaining salvation or attributing own misdeeds upon someone else .



What I've experienced is that, a genuine guru/teacher/philosopher can only pan out kosher words and phrases but it's you who is supposed to decipher the statements and that's not possible without The Devine help .