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IAF Ouragan Captured by PAF

flt/lt Hakimullah EX COAS forces landed Indian Gnat, F/L Rana Lal Chand Sidda of 51 Auxillary Squadron, IAF Jamnagar. IAF pilot Lal Chand was dismissed from the force while still in captivity.
Sqd/Ldr Hatmi flew the plane to Sargodha then it was Flown to Peshawar and was in PAF museum, Now it is in karachi PAF museum.

A small correction,Siddha was the pilot of the Ouragan,he was dismissed from active duty for cowardice.
The pilot of the Gnat was S.K.Sikand(not to be confused with Flt.Lt.Sekhon)who mistakenly landed in Pakistan thinking it was Pathankot AFB,after the war he was repatriated to India where he went on to become an Air Vice Marshall.
 
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A small correction,Siddha was the pilot of the Ouragan,he was dismissed from active duty for cowardice.
The pilot of the Gnat was S.K.Sikand(not to be confused with Flt.Lt.Sekhon)who mistakenly landed in Pakistan thinking it was Pathankot AFB,after the war he was repatriated to India where he went on to become an Air Vice Marshall.

That is exactly what we have said no corrections Siddha was the pilot who was forced landed at pasrur, Sikand lived and went back to IAF on the other hand Sekhon died.
Now talk about fighter pilot Sekhon was one you all Indians should remember he was young and went against 6 saber and all the saber pilots were vets and had to much experience. God Bless his soul most of you dont know that it was PAF who recommended him for the highest medal for Valor and he got Vir CH for that.
 
A small correction,Siddha was the pilot of the Ouragan,he was dismissed from active duty for cowardice.
The pilot of the Gnat was S.K.Sikand(not to be confused with Flt.Lt.Sekhon)who mistakenly landed in Pakistan thinking it was Pathankot AFB,after the war he was repatriated to India where he went on to become an Air Vice Marshall.


I think you are right. The pilot of Gnat was a Squadron Leader named Brijpal Singh Sikand. I am not an expert of indian names but I guess it comes out to be B.S.Sikand and not S.K.Sikand.

I read in a book that soon after coming out of Gnat, Sikand said " I dont know whether my daughter would have come back from school".
 
most of you dont know that it was PAF who recommended him for the highest medal for Valor and he got Vir CH for that.

really? how did that come about?

anyway I think the IAF went ahead and gave him a param vir chakra on its own becuase it was given within a month. I doubt if there was time for the PAF recommendation to have come in time or maybe the signal went unnoticed.

The only comparable incident i remember from indian side was the Pakistani Lt Col Akram Raja in Shakargarh who died leading his troops (65 were killed in mass frontal attack). But he was not given any award by pakistan i think.
 
A small correction,Siddha was the pilot of the Ouragan,he was dismissed from active duty for cowardice. .

I doubt if he was dismissed for 'cowardice'. You see he strayed into Pakistan during peace time. (June 65 I guess). at the most he may have been sacked for incompetance.

Also I have not read who ws the PAF pilot who intercepted him - can anyone help?
 
really? how did that come about?

anyway I think the IAF went ahead and gave him a param vir chakra on its own becuase it was given within a month. I doubt if there was time for the PAF recommendation to have come in time or maybe the signal went unnoticed.

The only comparable incident i remember from indian side was the Pakistani Lt Col Akram Raja in Shakargarh who died leading his troops (65 were killed in mass frontal attack). But he was not given any award by pakistan i think.


How did I come about that way the same day Wing Commander Changazi sent a letter to AHQ and with in 4 hours it was delivered to IAF.
Same way 4 of our pilots were Awarded SJ because IAF.

I don't like sarcisim when it comes to PAF. If you dont like what I have written don't question it leave the thread alone, but if you want to ask a question ask it in a fashion where the other member doesn't feel a
Dog Woofer.:angry:
 
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really? how did that come about?

anyway I think the IAF went ahead and gave him a param vir chakra on its own becuase it was given within a month. I doubt if there was time for the PAF recommendation to have come in time or maybe the signal went unnoticed.

The only comparable incident i remember from indian side was the Pakistani Lt Col Akram Raja in Shakargarh who died leading his troops (65 were killed in mass frontal attack). But he was not given any award by pakistan i think.


How did I come about that way the same day Wing Commander Changazi sent a letter to AHQ and with in 4 hours it was delivered to IAF.
Same way 4 of our pilots were Awarded SJ because IAF.

I don't like sarcisim when it comes to PAF. If you dont like what I have written don't question it leave the thread alone, but if you want to ask a question ask it in a fashion where the other member doesn't feel a
Dog Woofer.:angry:


Oh I am not being sarcastic - merely curious. however you are free to interpret it the way you want.

FWIW, The award ws made in a completely independent study. why? maybe they never got the letter. (and I am curious again. how does one send a lette to an adversary during the war?? it must have got to them only after war was over) . Whereever it ended up - it certainly did not come to air hq.

How do I know ? i know someone real close who was serving with the IAF head then as staff officer - he retired as air marshal in the 80s. He also was on one of the invetigative teams that looked into each loss. for param vir chakra to sekhon, he was part of the team that went to srinagar to interview all the eye witnesses and fighter controllers. The recommendation was actually intiated by the flight commander of sekhon who was on the ground. forwarded by their commnander of squadron and staton.

I read about your visit to india and your lunch with pushpindar chopra. you can ask him he has dug around a lot in air hq . he will confirm everything i wrote .
 
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Oh I am not being sarcastic - merely curious. however you are free to interpret it the way you want.

FWIW, The award ws made in a completely independent study. why? maybe they never got the letter. (and I am curious again. how does one send a lette to an adversary during the war?? it must have got to them only after war was over) . Whereever it ended up - it certainly did not come to air hq.

How do I know ? i know someone real close who was serving with the IAF head then as staff officer - he retired as air marshal in the 80s. He also was on one of the invetigative teams that looked into each loss. for param vir chakra to sekhon, he was part of the team that went to srinagar to interview all the eye witnesses and fighter controllers. The recommendation was actually intiated by the flight commander of sekhon who was on the ground. forwarded by their commnander of squadron and staton.

I read about your visit to india and your lunch with pushpindar chopra. you can ask him he has dug around a lot in air hq . he will confirm everything i wrote .

This fight commander should have been shot, I don't know what kind of pilots you guys had at that time Sekhon was not the only one who took off but his senior choose to bug out instead of fighting according to him the weather was bad and I got lost yeah sure. Got lost my ***.

Just because 2 countries are fighting doesn't mean they don't communicate they have a an officer here in Pakistan and so do we they are used as COM OFFICERS basically they are designated COM OFFICER under UN charter.
I don't need to ask any one , yes if you have an Ace in IAF than I can listen to him. Most of the stuff you guys come up is what you read. Instead learning something you make a mockery out of it.
 
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This fight commander should have been shot, I don't know what kind of pilots you guys had at that time Sekhon was not the only one who took off but his senior choose to bug out instead of fighting according to him the weather was bad and I got lost yeah sure. Got lost my ***.

Why should the flight commander be shot - it wsa not him in the air.

Just because 2 countries are fighting doesn't mean they don't communicate they have a an officer here in Pakistan and so do we they are used as COM OFFICERS basically they are designated COM OFFICER under UN charter.

Well what I wrote is the truth - no one based the award on the PAF letter. And as I said, I am close to the person who was part of the team that recommended Sekhons award . I can confirm no letter from PAF was part of the basis. Atleast they didnt see any letter. I can only guess tht this letter never reached delhi or was lost in the babugiri somewhere.

Most of the stuff you guys come up is what you read. Instead learning something you make a mockery out of it.

You are right. this is a learning experience. and I am sharing my information. I understand if you dont want to belive it. that is your right. again, i never doubt if this letter was sent. but I am sure it was not the basis on which the award was made. I hope i make things clear.
 
Cool down guys,we are having a good and informative discussion.By the bye,this PAF recommendation is a news to me too.
 
Wing Commander (Retd) Salim Baig gives an account of his own personal experience as a combat pilot in 1971.


“My second kill of the War was a Gnat fighter interceptor aircraft flying out of Srinagar airfield in Kashmir Valley on 14 Dec ’71. I was flying as No 5 leading a pair of F86F Sabres to escort a formation of four other Sabres carrying two 500 lbs. Mk84 bombs under each wing to crater the main runway 13/31. The overall leader of our formation of six aircraft was Wing Commander S A Changezi. We took off from Peshawar airbase in early morning hours and set course in easterly direction with escort pair on the right side of the formation. Myself and No 6 (Flight Lieutenant A Rahim Yousefzai) carried no external loads except two 200 gallons fuel tanks. On the way to the picturesque Kashmir Valley we flew close to Murree hill station and a few minutes later we crossed the mountain peaks short of the valley and accelerated down hill towards our pull up point which was about three miles short and to the South East of our target. Our gun master switches had already been put in Armed position to prepare for firing with just one press of the red trigger on the control stick.

The target (runway) was easily sighted to the left during pull up to the bombing height of 5000 feet above ground. Everyone in the formation acknowledged having visual contact with the runway and soon I saw the leader’s Sabre roll into a nose down steep turn to align up his aircraft with runway 31. He was followed by No 2, 3 and 4 and as 4 dived for his bombing run, I along with my wing-man fell behind him to position overselves for providing him cover. Leader and No 2 had already dropped their bombs on the target and had pulled out of the ensuing dive at about 1000 feet above ground. Before we could complete our positioning turns, I heard leader telling No 2 to immediately ‘Break’ to the left because there was an enemy Gnat aircraft firing at him. Leader and No 2 commenced a tight left turn to avoid the danger and No 3 (Flight Lieutenant Amjad Endrabi) after pulling out of the bombing run spotted them and manoeuvred to get behind the Gnat. No 4 had in the meantime completed his bombing dive and having no visual contact with the other formation members decided to leave the battle area.

I then asked No 6 (my wingman) to jettison the external fuel tanks and headed in the direction of the fight which had developed within visual and hearing distance west of the airfield. Because of high ‘G’ turns No 2 had depleted his speed and was unable to sustain manoeuvring energy for the fight. He, therefore, decided to roll out and leave the scene of action by turning away to the right. No 3 had by this time taken position behind the Gnat and had commenced firing with his guns.

He also announced on the radio that he was going to shoot him down. I along with No 6 (my wingman) had picked them up below us and had settled into an orbit on top at about 3-4000 feet higher. We could see the three aircraft in a tight circle with Gnat being in front, a Sabre (No 3) behind him who was followed by another Sabre (leader) at a height of about 200 feet above the ground. I was expecting the matter to be over in a short while because No 3 was well placed within gun range behind the Gnat. After a few seconds I heard No 3 calling that he was “Winchester” which meant that he had run out of ammo and his guns had stopped firing after missing the target in front.

At that time I saw the Gnat momentarily roll his wings level to jettison his underwing tanks and then he went into a high ‘G’ turn with renewed vigour to manoeuvre behind the lead Sabre. Within a couple of turns I could see the distance closing between the two and before he closed in dangerously I decided to get into the act. At the same time I heard an anxious call from the leader asking me to come down and relieve them of this imminent threat.

I asked my wingman to get into fighting position and then dove down manoeuvring my aircraft to get into the orbit of the fighters below. In a matter of few seconds, I was behind the Gnat and firing from a close range of about 1000 feet. In a three seconds burst from my Sabre’s six machine-guns firing at the rate of 120 round per seconds, I hit him square and thick black smoke started coming out from under his fuselage belly. The Gnat levelled his wings and headed for the airfield as if to indicate that for him the fight was over. I stopped firing at him and saw the canopy of his cockpit fly away from the aircraft. But the very next moment the Gnat snapped over inverted on its back and crashed into the undulated ground of the valley, killing the pilot.

Keeping a good look out for other enemy aircraft we joined up in battle formation and proceeded back to our base at Peshawar. As we climbed out of the valley we could hear our radar controllers calling us frantically to find out about our safety and outcome of the fight. They were much relieved when told that we were all safe and flying back after shooting down an Indian Gnat.

The Indian pilot Flg Off Nirmal Jeet Singh Sekhon put up a brave fight and was awarded Pram Veer Chakra - the highest gallantry award of Indian Armed Forces (equivalent to our Nishan-e-Haider). Detailed interviews of Srinagar Base Cdr, Sqn Cdr, Sqn Pilots and close relatives including his wife were broadcast by All India Radio who provided more information about their side of the story. He was No 2 in a formation of two Gnats who had been scrambled to intercept us but he had been delayed by two to three minutes at take off point after his leader got airborne. the air battle had been anxiously watched from the Control Tower by the Base Cdr & Sqn Cdr and in his radio communication, the Gnat pilot had informed them about being hit. He was advised to head for base but that was the last they heard from him. His aircraft wreckage was discovered in a gorge near the road coming from Srinagar town to the base. We never saw the Gnat leader’s aircraft anywhere around the battle area”.

Air Battles December 1971-My Experience
 
You are right. this is a learning experience. and I am sharing my information. I understand if you dont want to belive it. that is your right. again, i never doubt if this letter was sent. but I am sure it was not the basis on which the award was made. I hope i make things clear.

I think Murad sahib's point here may be that, as in the incident of the Indian official's helicopter being shot down accidentally by the IAF, some information has either been suppressed or lost in the 'fog of war'.

As such his point isn't one of 'disbelief' at the description of official Indian history you presented - his comment about the PAF nominating Flt. Lt. Shekhon was accompanied by the phrase "most of you dont know".
 
As such his point isn't one of 'disbelief' at the description of official Indian history you presented - his comment about the PAF nominating Flt. Lt. Shekhon was accompanied by the phrase "most of you dont know".

Oh its not a question of disbelief. the letter may have been sent. I will give Mr. Murad that. But the people in charge of investigating the awards in Air HQ never saw that letter.

But i know (direct from horses mouth) that no pakistani communications have been taken into account while awarding the param vir chakra. this is not about me pikcing up some official history and spouting stuff here.


I think Murad sahib's point here may be that, as in the incident of the Indian official's helicopter being shot down accidentally by the IAF, some information has either been suppressed or lost in the 'fog of war'.

you probably mean the Gujarat CM's airplane in 1965 - no its not suppressed news, its pretty much in the news and it was shot down by the PAF.
 
Oh its not a question of disbelief. the letter may have been sent. I will give Mr. Murad that. But the people in charge of investigating the awards in Air HQ never saw that letter.

But i know (direct from horses mouth) that no pakistani communications have been taken into account while awarding the param vir chakra. this is not about me pikcing up some official history and spouting stuff here.

In which case it isn't a matter of disbelief on either side then, though I must say that my reading of your post that Murad sahib took umbrage at was similar to his - the tone came off wrong.

'Babugiri' could well be a factor at play.
you probably mean the Gujarat CM's airplane in 1965 - no its not suppressed news, its pretty much in the news and it was shot down by the PAF.
Not sure - you'd have to ask Murad sahib, but I believe he referred specifically to a heli, not an airplane.
 
Sorry I my fault the CM was shoy down , but in 1971 war your interior MIN's helicopter was shot by yours guys IAF not PAF.
 

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