JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

This news about JF 17's electronics as good or better than blk is a piece of BULL---a chinese general is on record stating that the chinese J 10 is behind the F 16 in avionics / electronics---the video is available on the nternet---and here we are talking about the JF 17---.

Wake up guys---all this heated discussion on this board is due the to the news that the first bacth is not capable of bvr----.

Most of you pakistnis were bragging about JF 17 taking out the SU 30 a couple of weeks ago---now yopu find that ity don't even have bvr---then you change your tune and and say---oh it is replacing ground attack sqdrn that is why it doesnot have it.

Wake up again and smell the air and calm down----it doesn't have bvr because its electronics can't bear its burden and because its radar didnot have the capability---isn't this what pshamim stated a few days ago and that the next batch would---because klj 7 won't support teh sd 10.

The klj 10 is in progress of development but it is bigger in size---so the nose needs modification---which mean some design compromises in the making. What was being developed has been canned by france and we are back to square one.

Just to the knowledgeable---the PAF doesnot live in a state of ETHER---it lives and breaths in pakistan---it has to makeup with the needs of pakistan---it was paf's job to find the right equipment at the right time from the right place at the right price---other than that everything is an excuse.

Young kids---you need to understand something---when a corporation is endowed with uinlimited funds that a nation can come with and maximum resource----it becomes the job of the corporation to find the resource---.

We put these PAF wallas on the top of the world for 50 plus years---above the skies was God and below was PAF pilot---we gave them every resource possible that our poor nation could come up with and in return what we get---a pathetic average effort of a mediocrity---a poor C grade---.

They are a millitary agency---so it becomes their job to understand all the deceits and deceptions---lies and threats---sanctions and prohibitions----they are paid to take care of all that---that is what I have been trying to say for so long.

Most of you young men think that the PAF is like a 'MAIDEN' a DOSHEEZA the poor baby got deceived and lost her maidenhood to the deception of the big evil united states and you guys keep coming here trying to protect her honor. This agency has truly become too callous---she loves being abused---.

You people need to understand that the paf has made it a habbit of being deceived---you people cannot keep on goin protecting her all the time---.

Some of you are acting that if critical analysis of the paf is wrong---like we are letting the enemy know about the shortcomings----for those---PLEASE DON'T TAKE THE INDIANS FOR A FOOL---.

Only way you can counter the indians is to take down their pride the SU 30's---. It is a historical fact---take the pride of the nation---take down their Achilles---you will break the psyche of the indians break down the myth---for that you need a MYTH BUSTER---rest of them are just toys--.

Have you ever heard the saying ' EXCUSE IS LIKE AN A---HOLE---EVERYBODY GOT ONE '.

What if the army---instead of manufacturing Al Khalid---they said we don't need them---we are going to get armoured personale carriers---what would you people say----.

Guys---this thing is on a bigger scale than that.

 

[ptldM3]

I don't know its been post or not, if yes, kindly ignore it.

This cockpit belongs to the F-18.

 

[atlantis_cn]

Hi,

This news about JF 17's electronics as good or better than blk is a piece of BULL---a chinese general is on record stating that the chinese J 10 is behind the F 16 in avionics / electronics---the video is available on the nternet---and here we are talking about the JF 17---.

Wake up guys---all this heated discussion on this board is due the to the news that the first bacth is not capable of bvr----.

Most of you pakistnis were bragging about JF 17 taking out the SU 30 a couple of weeks ago---now yopu find that ity don't even have bvr---then you change your tune and and say---oh it is replacing ground attack sqdrn that is why it doesnot have it.

Wake up again and smell the air and calm down----it doesn't have bvr because its electronics can't bear its burden and because its radar didnot have the capability---isn't this what pshamim stated a few days ago and that the next batch would---because klj 7 won't support teh sd 10.

The klj 10 is in progress of development but it is bigger in size---so the nose needs modification---which mean some design compromises in the making. What was being developed has been canned by france and we are back to square one.

Just to the knowledgeable---the PAF doesnot live in a state of ETHER---it lives and breaths in pakistan---it has to makeup with the needs of pakistan---it was paf's job to find the right equipment at the right time from the right place at the right price---other than that everything is an excuse.

Young kids---you need to understand something---when a corporation is endowed with uinlimited funds that a nation can come with and maximum resource----it becomes the job of the corporation to find the resource---.

We put these PAF wallas on the top of the world for 50 plus years---above the skies was God and below was PAF pilot---we gave them every resource possible that our poor nation could come up with and in return what we get---a pathetic average effort of a mediocrity---a poor C grade---.

They are a millitary agency---so it becomes their job to understand all the deceits and deceptions---lies and threats---sanctions and prohibitions----they are paid to take care of all that---that is what I have been trying to say for so long.

Most of you young men think that the PAF is like a 'MAIDEN' a DOSHEEZA the poor baby got deceived and lost her maidenhood to the deception of the big evil united states and you guys keep coming here trying to protect her honor. This agency has truly become too callous---she loves being abused---.

You people need to understand that the paf has made it a habbit of being deceived---you people cannot keep on goin protecting her all the time---.

Some of you are acting that if critical analysis of the paf is wrong---like we are letting the enemy know about the shortcomings----for those---PLEASE DON'T TAKE THE INDIANS FOR A FOOL---.

Only way you can counter the indians is to take down their pride the SU 30's---. It is a historical fact---take the pride of the nation---take down their Achilles---you will break the psyche of the indians break down the myth---for that you need a MYTH BUSTER---rest of them are just toys--.

Have you ever heard the saying ' EXCUSE IS LIKE AN A---HOLE---EVERYBODY GOT ONE '.

What if the army---instead of manufacturing Al Khalid---they said we don't need them---we are going to get armoured personale carriers---what would you people say----.

Guys---this thing is on a bigger scale than that.

No point to repeat these words again and again. People understand your point just most don't agree with it (like you don't agree with them they have good reasons to beg to differ). And even if all the members here agree with you and start to get angry with PAF so what? It won't help.

Let's just cool down and talk stuff that is constructive and relevant to the topic!

 

[mughaljee]

People understand your point just most don't agree with it (like you don't agree with them they have good reasons to beg to differ). And even if all the members here agree with you and start to get angry with PAF so what? It won't help.

My heart Voice, Sir Mastankhan surelly will put his leg over this, although You are right or best right ?

 

[F86 Saber]

Hi,

The u s will support a conventional war between the two---only if we can spill some 'bad blood'---actually the u s will sit on the sidelines and be a monitor---they will watch us and supervise the war.

They know that a war between pakistan and india is a must at this stage---indians are being cocky with what they got---pakistanis have a strut in their stride because of the past excursions----so the U S really really wants the two sides to DUKE IT OUT with conventional warfare. The sh-it needs to be kicked out of someone to bring some sense into them---be it india or be it pakistan---.

1- Pakistan will not strike India first because they don't have enough resources and the stance of our armed forces has always been defensive.

2- India will also not attack Pakistan because,
(a) They have no motive except may be show of power.
(b) India also knows that even if we do not use Nukes our armed
forces are no pushovers and will be able to fight back.
(c) Economically speaking, Indian economy is currently growing
and they are attracting a lot of foreign investment these days.
I am sure they will understand that in case of a war some of
these, if not all, investment opportunities will be lost.

As for our nuclear assets---it is a guarantee---the U S has staked out all the pakistan nuclear assets at this time through their surveillance planes---that is why the u s is not talking about pakistanio nuclear threat anymore---gentlement when the u s doesnot talk about an issue puiblicly like it did before---it is time to be concerned---because they have prepared a contingency plan which has a 110% success guarantee.

Well if that is the case and India knows it than God help us. Lets just arrange a mass suicide because we are already done for. Thanks for letting the Indians know by the way.

My man---you understand one part of my comments but then you jump when you read the other. It is not a matter of F 22---It is matter of pakistan playing their hand very badly after the war began in afg---.

You know who gf4australia is---he is a defence analyst---a very professional guy---he runs a defence related forum where world class defence journalists and people of all ranks of the millitary participate alongwith average joe's like me---while discussing this issue with him about 6---7 years ago---he agreed with me that pakistanis failed miserably in cutting out a great deal with the americans after they got that infamous call---.

You see pakistanis have been acting like " ROOTHI BAHU " with the americans----and most of the people on this board still are acting like one.

Pakistanis didnot grasp that what ever happened in thee 90's was a thing of the past---today is a new day---if we have to kowtow---then moisten our lips and suck it deep and don't let go---just like the israelis---just like the indians.

Yes i understand Pakistan should have asked for more when we started the WOT, what you don't understand is that Beggars cannot be choosers. What we Pakistanis do not understand is that instead of offering us a deal, USA could so easily have stomped on us to get through to Afghanistan and we couldn't have stopped them. Whatever deal we got was a bonus.

As for your examples odf india going a step ahead0---yes they will----but due to our less covered area---we need lesser number of planes---I would rather have 150 F 16 blk 52's and 100 F 18's or a 100 Raphaels---they would be a major major force multiplier---you need to break down the indian psyche----the su 30---you need to bring on something that can take out the su 30 mano amano.


All this war hysteria is a build up of what the su 30 did against the american F 15's in those excercises---the americans f=d it up for us during those fixed up war games. The indians can't even look down at the ground anymore---.

So is that a good thing for us or a bad thing? Indians are so over confident of SU-30 that if even on of them is brought down by our F-16 they'll crumble. Let them be overconfident what is your problem?

That is what you need---if somehow or the other you can take their pride ut one time---they will re-think about the whole issue---they are not going to run and get the next best---because it will be costly and then pak gets the next best---it will hinder india to move ahead---it will be like chains around its ankles---if you down the su 30's---you will bring india to the peace table.

Man you are amazing, you think the whole Indian nation and Army have based their confidence on one fighter plane? And they will attack us only because of their confidence in SU-30.

That is what a strike aircraft of the paf needs to do---that is what the anticipation was all about---.


Your last para---please explain to me in a little more detail what you mean by that---so I can write a clearer response. Thanks.

My last para meant to ask you what you are gaining from this discussion? I understand your frustration that JF-17 is not at par with SU-30 (Which it was never meant to be) and is not yet BVR capable (Which the seniors have explained why not)

Now let me give you some inside information, i talked to a family friend of mine who is an engineer in PAF working on this project. He told me in January this year that hey have just started weapons testing on JF-17. The current JF-17 are only being inducted to show the world that JF-17 is a functional air plane. The air to ground role JF-17 is not the final product, consider this as a step in the evolution of the final product and let me assure you the end product will be much better than what it is right now.

 

[Mani2020]

I think this jf-17 discussion is really getting controversial firstly they were without refuelling prob n now they are without bvr

Can you imagine a 4th generation aircraft getting inducted in 2010 is without bvr and refueling prob?

i thnk with first batch of jf-17 without refueling prob n bvr is just waste of resources to induct coz better was to switch f-7's to ground attack sqrdn lol because the main purpose was to have refueling n bvr capability which PAF failed to utilize till now

And i thnk pretending about future jf-17's is just senseless coz you have to think and admire what u have in present coz no one have seen future n no one knows wat future will bring and in present jf-17 are going no where.

How can you be sure that india will not attack you ? may be they attack you tomorrow then wat will we do? you have to think wats and ifs of present not wat you can do after 5 years coz 5 years from now will b a hell different story, specially when u have an enemy as bigger as india

This is our blind love which always deceives us, In good people there are some devils also n u have to be good enough to spot them, n sorry to say our past is full of blunders committed by high personnels from submarine deals to aircraft deals, i dont wana spot that coz my intention is not to hurt anyone


These are my opinions,No one is bound to accept.You can agree you can disagree, but if i have hurt anyone um sorry for that in advance

 

[araz]

I think this jf-17 discussion is really getting controversial firstly they were without refuelling prob n now they are without bvr

Can you imagine a 4th generation aircraft getting inducted in 2010 is without bvr and refueling prob?

i thnk with first batch of jf-17 without refueling prob n bvr is just waste of resources to induct coz better was to switch f-7's to ground attack sqrdn lol because the main purpose was to have refueling n bvr capability which PAF failed to utilize till now

And i thnk pretending about future jf-17's is just senseless coz you have to think and admire what u have in present coz no one have seen future n no one knows wat future will bring and in present jf-17 are going no where.

How can you be sure that india will not attack you ? may be they attack you tomorrow then wat will we do? you have to think wats and ifs of present not wat you can do after 5 years coz 5 years from now will b a hell different story, specially when u have an enemy as bigger as india

This is our blind love which always deceives us, In good people there are some devils also n u have to be good enough to spot them, n sorry to say our past is full of blunders committed by high personnels from submarine deals to aircraft deals, i dont wana spot that coz my intention is not to hurt anyone


These are my opinions,No one is bound to accept.You can agree you can disagree, but if i have hurt anyone um sorry for that in advance

mani
Discussions are a nopportunity for people to learn from each other. No one bashes anyone else, it is just a case of projecting your viewpoint, some people do so more forcefully than others
Going by your logic what should one get instead. We dont have the money to go out and buy whatever we want, and a bird in hand is better than two in the bush.
Just a pointer, when the chinese try new missiles and avionics, their test bed is always an old plane(JH7s). We are trying the same thing with our Mirages. You will have refueling Probes and BVR missiles in the next yr or so if not sooner. It is just a case of priority. JF is yet in its infancy. Let it mature out.It is a matter of time. Another pointer__ Do you think PLAAF and PAF are fools to take thunder to Farnborough when it does not have the goodies that you talk about!!Maybe SD10 is not what PAF wants, maybe it wants something else or there are other matters being negotiated. you have to wait and see.
Regards
Araz

 

[araz]

MastanKhan..
You know you thinker tankers---do some research---go to the library and read some material---not some monthly magazines but some serious books about the real stuff.

The greek air force proved everyone wrong---their m2k had a lock on the F 16 and the F 16 could not get out of the lock---regardless of the maneavours it performed---isn't that the only combat incidence where a greek m2k downed a turk F 16 in real combat---.

You see---the proof is right in front of our faces---but we don't want to acknowledge---we always claim about the man behind the machine---but when it comes to m2k---that man suddenly disappears---come on---what is this rooster and bull story.
Either it is the man behind the machine or is it not.

That is one hell of the explanation and cracks-up all M2K haters. Amazing analysis. Now that clarifies M2K is not dead not a long gone story but still in business..and the rest part that MastanKhan explained that PAF over and over again makes the same mistakes and pass on excuse statements that i already explain looping right from F-7/F-7PGs till today. americans will slip out at some point of time again as india is slowly taken over the more important place will cut off our future just as it did with us on france, they are closer to french/uk/us..great MK.

In exercises PAF Mirages managed to get a hit on the f15s. Does that mean that the Mirages are superior to f15s? Another difference in interpretation , which I want to clarify is that no one thinks that M2Ks were bad planes.Pshamim is on record having said he would love to see the plane inPAF. MuradK is a fan of the plane.It is not a question of what can or cannot be acquired. It is a question of what is good for PAF in the long run NOW. We have discussed to death the problems with induction of M2Ks in PAF. The assembly line has been closed for 5 yrs and spares will be difficult to source. Tell me do you want to buy this plane now when there are BETTER choices available. It is time to move on from the M2K saga and develop what we have at hand.This is the crux of what I am trying to say to all who want to listen.
Araz

 

[araz]

Thanks for video.

So Chinese designed and developed an aircraft with inputs from PAF, and later involved PAF technicians during flight testings so that it will be easy to maintain the craft back home. Neat and simple process.

Read his post again.Distorting other peoples statements is not on!! He clearly mentioned engineers which you have very conveniently omitted.
Araz

 

[araz]

Worthiness of Mirage can be gauged by the fact that India has dicided to upgrade 51 Mirages for whooping 2.2 bn. India could have simply brought new aircraft of 4.5 gen with this money.

You have also upgraded the Bisons, is it a mark of their worthiness. Think again!! The reason you want to upgrade your M2ks is because you have them and clearly IAF is not foolish enough to throw away planes with service life left in them. It is an economic decision especially in light of the delays in choosing the MRCA trials. No one here has anything bad to say about the M2Ks. they are fantastic planes. But like the Bisons and the M3s their time is slowly drawing to a close. They are expensive to maintain, but IAF, unlike us can afford it.
rerards
Araz

 

[hataf]

Hi,

This news about JF 17's electronics as good or better than blk is a piece of BULL---a chinese general is on record stating that the chinese J 10 is behind the F 16 in avionics / electronics---the video is available on the nternet---and here we are talking about the JF 17---.

Wake up guys---all this heated discussion on this board is due the to the news that the first bacth is not capable of bvr----.

Most of you pakistnis were bragging about JF 17 taking out the SU 30 a couple of weeks ago---now yopu find that ity don't even have bvr---then you change your tune and and say---oh it is replacing ground attack sqdrn that is why it doesnot have it.

Wake up again and smell the air and calm down----it doesn't have bvr because its electronics can't bear its burden and because its radar didnot have the capability---isn't this what pshamim stated a few days ago and that the next batch would---because klj 7 won't support teh sd 10.

The klj 10 is in progress of development but it is bigger in size---so the nose needs modification---which mean some design compromises in the making. What was being developed has been canned by france and we are back to square one.

Just to the knowledgeable---the PAF doesnot live in a state of ETHER---it lives and breaths in pakistan---it has to makeup with the needs of pakistan---it was paf's job to find the right equipment at the right time from the right place at the right price---other than that everything is an excuse.

Young kids---you need to understand something---when a corporation is endowed with uinlimited funds that a nation can come with and maximum resource----it becomes the job of the corporation to find the resource---.

We put these PAF wallas on the top of the world for 50 plus years---above the skies was God and below was PAF pilot---we gave them every resource possible that our poor nation could come up with and in return what we get---a pathetic average effort of a mediocrity---a poor C grade---.

They are a millitary agency---so it becomes their job to understand all the deceits and deceptions---lies and threats---sanctions and prohibitions----they are paid to take care of all that---that is what I have been trying to say for so long.

Most of you young men think that the PAF is like a 'MAIDEN' a DOSHEEZA the poor baby got deceived and lost her maidenhood to the deception of the big evil united states and you guys keep coming here trying to protect her honor. This agency has truly become too callous---she loves being abused---.

You people need to understand that the paf has made it a habbit of being deceived---you people cannot keep on goin protecting her all the time---.

Some of you are acting that if critical analysis of the paf is wrong---like we are letting the enemy know about the shortcomings----for those---PLEASE DON'T TAKE THE INDIANS FOR A FOOL---.

Only way you can counter the indians is to take down their pride the SU 30's---. It is a historical fact---take the pride of the nation---take down their Achilles---you will break the psyche of the indians break down the myth---for that you need a MYTH BUSTER---rest of them are just toys--.

Have you ever heard the saying ' EXCUSE IS LIKE AN A---HOLE---EVERYBODY GOT ONE '.

What if the army---instead of manufacturing Al Khalid---they said we don't need them---we are going to get armoured personale carriers---what would you people say----.

Guys---this thing is on a bigger scale than that.

all i want to know that in which year the Chinese general made this statement

 

[Dazzler]

@Mastan Khan

you seem to be in a state of denial for some reason but just because you do not want to believe, does not mean it is not true.

Regards

 

[SQ8]

Hi,



We put these PAF wallas on the top of the world for 50 plus years---above the skies was God and below was PAF pilot---we gave them every resource possible that our poor nation could come up with and in return what we get---a pathetic average effort of a mediocrity---a poor C grade---.

They are a millitary agency---so it becomes their job to understand all the deceits and deceptions---lies and threats---sanctions and prohibitions----they are paid to take care of all that---that is what I have been trying to say for so long.

.

Mediocrity exists due to nepotism in ranks, and corruption in procurement.Back in the 80's senior officers in the PAF were appalled when a Chinese company with no experience whatsoever was chosen to supply ECM equipment for the Mirage V's. The ECM equipment was older in generation than the mirages themselves. Yet kickbacks and politics within and outside the PAF ensured that the process was carried out much to the chagrin of those who cried foul.
The same was done for Mushaq's supplied to the Army for artillery spotting. Thankfully the same did not occur for the beloved M2K-5's which would have left us paying 5 times more than what they actually cost, thanks to the current presidents contacts.
Engineers at the Army weapons testing were flabbergasted when senior staff in the procurement department signed an MoU for Millions of dollars for license production of the Mp5 as a main weapon for the Infantry. A weapon whose bullet is lying on the ground after 300m and was rejected by every department for being useless for anything else than close combat. Yet the MoU was signed by the general in charge anyway, He currently lives in a beautiful 4 kanal house on Astonia Boulevard in Phase II of DHA Islamabad. Take a peek in his house and there are two 5 series, a 7 and a 3 series along with two accords sitting pretty in his driveway.
I don't apologize for the PAF, I have been left with my head banging too many times to care when dealing with some of their procurement engineers regarding electronics manufactured in our country. I have been witness to sudden changes in the mind favoring foreign equipment even when the local equipment offered did better with less cost.
However there are many cases when assurances are given to the PAF by the suppliers and by the Foreign office themselves that nothing could go wrong, yet it does. You want the french to change their mind, Purchase the Marlin for the Navy and you will automatically be entitled to the avionics for the Thunder. No amount of cajoling from the Indians will change that. Should the PAF have given thought of this possibility? That a deal that only required the signature to proceed would suddenly be forgotten, maybe if they had looked into the past and seen how the french prefer fat wallets over cordial relations they would have made sure they had some cash to throw around initially before jumping in. The Chinese have done more than enough to provide the PAF especially with whatever it asked on deffered loans and grants without a question. And Chinese electronics were never the option for the Thunder from the start. Unfortunately, Everybody else that makes electronics of any repute lists our nation as rogue and does not allow export licenses, or their equipment is too expensive for us to afford(Or maybe it could be afforded, was the Phenom VIP jet needed?, was the gulfstream Really that necessary? Its was a running joke in the PAF ranks a few years back that since the Airforce cant buy any aircraft due to sanctions they are replacing their staff cars, true to that all the staff cars have been replaced with brand spanking new Toyotas and BMW's.)
Singling out the the PAF for critique or praise wont change the reality that our whole nation is content with mediocrity and corruption. And yes the Indians aren't stupid, they are using this lax by the nation collectively to build up their military and weaken us internally. Unlike us they go back and look at their mistakes from the past. And those young fanboys here expecting even a hint of the PAF's performance in 71 if a new conflict breaks out will surely be surprised when the Indians give us a drubbing in every theater of war.

 

[ANG]

Pakistan Begins Domestic Fighter Avionics Production - Defense News

 

[ANG]

Pakistan Begins Domestic Fighter Avionics Production - Defense News

Pakistan Begins Domestic Fighter Avionics Production
By USMAN ANSARI
Published: 4 Jun 2010 18:01
ISLAMABAD - Pakistan said it has commenced domestic production of avionics for the Sino-Pak JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft.

The announcement came May 28 at a ceremony attended by Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra, just outside Islamabad.

To date, the majority of avionics produced in Pakistan have been manufactured under license from foreign companies, most notably Selex Galileo radars for the Air Force's Mirage III and F-7P Fishbed fighters. However, this looks set to change.

During the May 28 ceremony, the PAC's chairman, Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan, outlined the JF-17 avionics, in which he stated, "four indigenously designed and developed avionics systems were also being produced," and that the "production scope would be progressively broadened to include the production of a complete JF-17 avionics suite at the complex."

Officials at PAC could not provide any details on the announcement, and Air Force officials declined to answer any queries.

It is believed, however, that at least two of the domestically designed and produced systems include a head-up display and a weapons and mission management computer.

Past indigenous avionics projects have included a radar homing system in the 1960s for the F-104 fighter jet; an IRST pod and modifications to the GEC 956 HUD (Head Up Display); and the HUDWAC (HUD Weapon Aiming Computer) for the F-7P in the 1990s.

Efforts to sustain avionics design in Pakistan have not succeeded.

Retired Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail said he believes the reason is because it has "not been a viable proposition so far."

However, large-scale indigenous production of the JF-17 and potential export sales mean such a move is now more economically viable, he said.

Tufai said the Air Force has the potential to succeed because it has "a very large pool of highly qualified avionics engineers at the bachelor's, master's and even doctorate level, both serving and retired."

If that potential does result in a focused effort, "the next decade may well see Pakistan establish itself as one of the leading Asia-Pacific producers of avionics hardware and software," he said.