More M113s for Pakistan

[JK!]

Hello this is JK!
I am posting my first thread and its about a web page about M113 APCs.

http://www.combatreform.com/m113combat.htm

Having looked at the numbers of these machines in Pakistani service I think we need alot more.
This website mentions M113 in Iraq and how a 50 year old design is upgraded for service on the front line in that theatre of war.
Also www.globalsecurity.org mentions loads of variant of M113, andwebsite the Canadian land forces have loads of Engineering variants as well.

I think Pakistan should seriously consider getting more M113 APCs and variants. :flag:

 

[niaz]

Pakistan already has a lot of M113 APC's and is manufacturing the same under licence. In addition we make an uprated version known as 'Talha' as well. What PA needs is not more of a 50 year old design M113's Armoured cars but more MCIV's . These are more suitable for digitalised battlefield.

 

[JK!]

Buying Surplus equipment and upgrading it could be a cheaper option though.
www.globalsecurity.org mentions the M113A4 IFV but what MICV could Pakistan seriously consider getting bearing in mind costs etc...

 

[Keysersoze]

The future lies with IFV's not APC's

The M113 has its uses but to get more to the detriment of other vehicles would not be a good choice.

A lot of forces are opting for wheeled personel carriers and that may be the way forward.

 

[JK!]

The future lies with IFV's not APC's

The M113 has its uses but to get more to the detriment of other vehicles would not be a good choice.

A lot of forces are opting for wheeled personel carriers and that may be the way forward.

Read the this link I put up and you will see that in Iraq US soldiers prefer the M113 to the new stryker vehicle.

http://www.combatreform.com/m113combat.htm

For the M113 as a IFV look at:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m113a4-ifvl.htm

or this one about M113 IFV in Egyptian army as EIFV with complete turret of Bradley vehcle:
http://www.uniteddefense.com/www.m113.com/eifv.html

 

[JK!]

I don't mean that Pakistani soldiers should fight in old vehicles just of the shelf.
what I mean is that such vehicles although old still have potential and it is this that I wish to emphasise.
I would much rather see Pakistan with M113 vehicles of this calibre.
Numbers were only half my arguement its is the upgrade potentials which count more.

 

[JK!]

Armor Protection of M113A4 IFV note the 30mm ballistic protection. Potentially able to take hits from BMP 2 main armament

Basic hull
5083 Aluminum

Optional armor packages
14.5mm ballistic
30mm ballistic
Chemical energy weapons
Mine protection

Main armament is a stabilized 25mm chaingun and 7.62mm machinegun.

 

[Keysersoze]

Actually I have heard (anecdotally) that American troops prefer the stryker.
Plus i am aware of the controversy with tracked vs wheeled fighting vehicles.

Howver tracked vehicles have greater difficulties in urban environs and wheeled vehicles are easier to maintain.

Plus the links you have posted are for upgraded M113's which are not the same as a dedicated IFV (A 6 man section is not enough in my opinion)

The M113 is great as a "battle taxi" but lets not make it out as being the cure to all illnesses

 

[JK!]

Actually I have heard (anecdotally) that American troops prefer the stryker.
Plus i am aware of the controversy with tracked vs wheeled fighting vehicles.

Howver tracked vehicles have greater difficulties in urban environs and wheeled vehicles are easier to maintain.

Plus the links you have posted are for upgraded M113's which are not the same as a dedicated IFV (A 6 man section is not enough in my opinion)

The M113 is great as a "battle taxi" but lets not make it out as being the cure to all illnesses

One of the latest solutions for tracked vehicles are band tracks which allow them to operate better in Urban environments.
http://www.uniteddefense.com/cap/bandtrack.htm

I don't mean to nit pick but the link on Global Security mentions that the
M113A4 IFV can carry a crew of 3 and up to 10 troops.

As for a dedeicated IFV I have noticed that Turkey is producing a similar vehicle to the United Defence AIFV which is also similar to the Talha vehicle that Pakistan is producing. Perhaps this could be an area for co-operation between the two nations in sharing technology.

As for a wheeled vehicle Turkey has also produced a vehicle in a joint venture with Romania the RN 94 in service with Bangladesh.
http://www.bdmilitary.com/main/military/land/army/equipment/apc/wheeled/army_afv_rn94.htm

 

[Keysersoze]

It maybe of interest that in 2002 PAK purchased the technical data regarding the A2 variant of the M113.

Perhaps they are using this in order to rebuild the fleet to that standard.

It would be intersting to see if the armour has been improved though.

 

[Awesome]

A lot of forces are opting for wheeled personel carriers and that may be the way forward.

That's because they are faced with urban warfare, how about fighting in the Run of Kutch? It's a desert region/muddy region.

I think they should improve on the Talha APC. When we're already are producing home-made stuff in this field, we should just invest into the R & D into the upgrades.

If we wanted to upgrade an APC to an IFV, how hard would it be to add an extra gun?

I'm gonna google now for other differences

 

[Sid]

Sorry to see this happening at a time when the APC is losing its effectiveness. Pakistan Army should be seriously considering procuring IFVs now instead of stacking up on M-113s which would be sitting ducks in wartime!

 

[EagleEyes]

Sid,

Sometime ago i heard that APCs were being upgraded with the air-defence systems, however i doubt that all the APCs more than 3000+ will go on under that upgrade as it was quite expensive. Why do you think M-113s will be quite vulnerable in the modern warfare? APCs have worked in the past, and they should work to now, and as for the IFVs dont you think they will be vulnerable as the APCs to the fighter air-crafts.

 

[Keysersoze]

Webby I think that the M113's mentioned in that thread were specifically air defence variants (I believe Blain refered to them being RBS-70's on Talha's)
See attached pic for what I mean.
The basic difference between a APC and a IFV is the ability to A) have direct fire support formm the vehicle (in the form of a turret or similar) B)And gun ports to enable infantrymen to fire from within the vehicle.

As a point of interest the Talha looks VERY similar to a Turkish Apc design by FNSS.

However Asim did hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the conditions that the vehicles are used in as being important. Tracked vehicles are generally wider than wheeled types, hence they are not so great in urban conditions.

Another point of interest is that within the last few years (2002 I believe) PAK purchased tech info for the M113A2 so that is probably the upgrade that they made.
From the congress notifications...
"Pakistan 7/26/2002 DTC 190-02 technical data regarding the M113A2 armored personnel carrier Direct Commercial Sales"

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/no...ak&descin=&date1in=1992&date2in=2006&typein=%

 

[JK!]

Have a look at

http://www.pakistan.gov.pk/divisions/defenceproduction-division/images/YEARBOOK2004-05.pdf

It has a photo of Al Hamza IFV and a decent picture of Saad and Talha APCs

Also look at the galleries in the army section of

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/index.html

There are some decent pics from Ideas 2004 and pictures of M113 in Pak army service.

Note also a PIFV which is basically a United Defence LP IFV/ Turkish APC that Keysersoze mentions and the probable inspiration of the Talha APC.
A detail mentions something about trials in 1991 so why were more not procured.
Anything go wrong with the trials ?