Pakistan Army Al-Zarrar Tank (Swat)

[Irfan Baloch]

Lots of T-59s got screwed in this conflict but most were salvageable. We lost 4 in Bajaur but they were all sent to HIT and they say they can fix them up. One was captured by the Taliban, we couldn't afford them having one of our beasts so we had a 500 pounder dropped on it. Not much was left.

when did that happen? any details of this amazing story? strange I missed it.

 

[SQ8]

Same here..
I know of the T-59's going down.. but being taken out by a hot pickle is new.

 

[Icarus]

when did that happen? any details of this amazing story? stange I missed it.

August 2008 sir, fresh at the start of Op Sherdil. The miscreants lobbed a grenade in the turret through an open cupola and closed it shut, unsurprisingly what happened next was not pretty. Anyways the driver was taken alive and subsequently beheaded in a full ceremony which we called a heli strike on and got full satisfaction out of. We got news from sources that the miscreants were holding the tank in a fortified compound that had already been marked for bombing, we decided to go through with the strike. Tank was lost but at least it was out of their hands.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

August 2008 sir, fresh at the start of Op Sherdil. The miscreants lobbed a grenade in the turret through an open cupola and closed it shut, unsurprisingly what happened next was not pretty. Anyways the driver was taken alive and subsequently beheaded in a full ceremony which we called a heli strike on and got full satisfaction out of. We got news from sources that the miscreants were holding the tank in a fortified compound that had already been marked for bombing, we decided to go through with the strike. Tank was lost but at least it was out of their hands.

Tragic
I hope the tank crews have decided not to be that laxed anymore and keep the cupola closed once entering the hot zone.
this incident is consistent with other stories and videos where the Pakistani soldiers are not observing the SOPs and are being sniped on the check posts, breaking the skyline and walking into Taliban/ Al Qaeda ambushes again & again. (reference whole convoys surrendering to Taliban)

 

[Icarus]

Tragic
I hope the tank crews have decided not to be that laxed anymore and keep the cupola closed once entering the hot zone.
this incident is consistent with other stories and videos where the Pakistani soldiers are not observing the SOPs and are being sniped on the check posts, breaking the skyline and walking into Taliban/ Al Qaeda ambushes again & again. (reference whole convoys surrendering to Taliban)

That grenade through the cupola trick worked once more but the tank driver did not stop and was able to bring the tank to the nearest friendly fort. Eventually the tank crews learnt that it was worth choking on smoke and living than enjoying the fresh air and never making it back.

 

[HAIDER]

Do you guys think in last many years PA learn alot and capable of quick changing tactics and take down militant even before they disperse ?

 

[Iceman]

August 2008 sir, fresh at the start of Op Sherdil. The miscreants lobbed a grenade in the turret through an open cupola and closed it shut, unsurprisingly what happened next was not pretty. Anyways the driver was taken alive and subsequently beheaded in a full ceremony which we called a heli strike on and got full satisfaction out of. We got news from sources that the miscreants were holding the tank in a fortified compound that had already been marked for bombing, we decided to go through with the strike. Tank was lost but at least it was out of their hands.

this is a strange version of the story .... what i got first hand from the people involved was that the tank was taken on by one of the RRs that the Talis had captured and hit on the left side close to the first bogie wheel .. the driver got injured by the hit and the tank got off the road and its belly touched the ground ... thereon a lot of effort was made by the other tps to somehow get the men out but were unable to do it ... the driver got out of the tank but was shot by the talis .. and later they lodged a grenade through one of the plates that was temp there subsequently to be replaced by night sight .. thats what happened .. that tank could be seen on many videos destroyed on the rd side in bajaur ... i have first hand experience .. no tali would dare come as close as a 100 m of a tank in combat .. plus if the cupolas were closed there is no way to open them from the outside .... its locked from the inside and can only be opened from within ... they woudnt dare get in from the driver's hatch for the fear that the men inside are armed and would definitely not allow anyone to enter from that hatch ... the gunner and the commander are right behind the driver's hatch and can easily take on anyone who tries to enter from there .. may be a grenade was lodged from that opening but thats not what i was told .....

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

August 2008 sir, fresh at the start of Op Sherdil. The miscreants lobbed a grenade in the turret through an open cupola and closed it shut, unsurprisingly what happened next was not pretty. Anyways the driver was taken alive and subsequently beheaded in a full ceremony which we called a heli strike on and got full satisfaction out of. We got news from sources that the miscreants were holding the tank in a fortified compound that had already been marked for bombing, we decided to go through with the strike. Tank was lost but at least it was out of their hands.

this is a strange version of the story .... what i got first hand from the people involved was that the tank was taken on by one of the RRs that the Talis had captured and hit on the left side close to the first bogie wheel .. the driver got injured by the hit and the tank got off the road and its belly touched the ground ... thereon a lot of effort was made by the other tps to somehow get the men out but were unable to do it ... the driver got out of the tank but was shot by the talis .. and later they lodged a grenade through one of the plates that was temp there subsequently to be replaced by night sight .. thats what happened .. that tank could be seen on many videos destroyed on the rd side in bajaur ... i have first hand experience .. no tali would dare come as close as a 100 m of a tank in combat .. plus if the cupolas were closed there is no way to open them from the outside .... its locked from the inside and can only be opened from within ... they woudnt dare get in from the driver's hatch for the fear that the men inside are armed and would definitely not allow anyone to enter from that hatch ... the gunner and the commander are right behind the driver's hatch and can easily take on anyone who tries to enter from there .. may be a grenade was lodged from that opening but thats not what i was told .....

 

[Icarus]

this is a strange version of the story .... what i got first hand from the people involved was that the tank was taken on by one of the RRs that the Talis had captured and hit on the left side close to the first bogie wheel .. the driver got injured by the hit and the tank got off the road and its belly touched the ground ... thereon a lot of effort was made by the other tps to somehow get the men out but were unable to do it ... the driver got out of the tank but was shot by the talis .. and later they lodged a grenade through one of the plates that was temp there subsequently to be replaced by night sight .. thats what happened .. that tank could be seen on many videos destroyed on the rd side in bajaur ... i have first hand experience .. no tali would dare come as close as a 100 m of a tank in combat .. plus if the cupolas were closed there is no way to open them from the outside .... its locked from the inside and can only be opened from within ... they woudnt dare get in from the driver's hatch for the fear that the men inside are armed and would definitely not allow anyone to enter from that hatch ... the gunner and the commander are right behind the driver's hatch and can easily take on anyone who tries to enter from there .. may be a grenade was lodged from that opening but thats not what i was told .....

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------



this is a strange version of the story .... what i got first hand from the people involved was that the tank was taken on by one of the RRs that the Talis had captured and hit on the left side close to the first bogie wheel .. the driver got injured by the hit and the tank got off the road and its belly touched the ground ... thereon a lot of effort was made by the other tps to somehow get the men out but were unable to do it ... the driver got out of the tank but was shot by the talis .. and later they lodged a grenade through one of the plates that was temp there subsequently to be replaced by night sight .. thats what happened .. that tank could be seen on many videos destroyed on the rd side in bajaur ... i have first hand experience .. no tali would dare come as close as a 100 m of a tank in combat .. plus if the cupolas were closed there is no way to open them from the outside .... its locked from the inside and can only be opened from within ... they woudnt dare get in from the driver's hatch for the fear that the men inside are armed and would definitely not allow anyone to enter from that hatch ... the gunner and the commander are right behind the driver's hatch and can easily take on anyone who tries to enter from there .. may be a grenade was lodged from that opening but thats not what i was told .....

I myself was in Bajaur at the time, like I said we had 4 tanks destroyed in Bajaur and about a dozen hit by multiple RPGs and IEDs. The one you saw in the videos could have been anyone of them. I'm thinking it was the one on the road that went between surrounding ground about 7-10 feet high, also visible in the Al-Jazeera documentary "Pakistan's frontline" or something like that. The cupola once locked from inside can undoubtedly be opened only from inside but I clearly mentioned that the cupola had been opened by the tank crew to get some fresh air. The Taliban wouldn't approach a tank but they learnt that it can be approached from the rear if the commander's machine gun wasn't manned just like they learnt that they stood a chance to hit a gunship when it lost altitude to examine the ground and after firing on it, they would run into their tunnels because they knew the Gunship would run out of fuel and ammo eventually and will have to leave. They even managed to hit a cobra in Khyber Agency and took a couple of tries on them in Bajaur as well, even managing to hit an Mi-17 that was resupplying a border post.

 

[Iceman]

I myself was in Bajaur at the time, like I said we had 4 tanks destroyed in Bajaur and about a dozen hit by multiple RPGs and IEDs. The one you saw in the videos could have been anyone of them. I'm thinking it was the one on the road that went between surrounding ground about 7-10 feet high, also visible in the Al-Jazeera documentary "Pakistan's frontline" or something like that. The cupola once locked from inside can undoubtedly be opened only from inside but I clearly mentioned that the cupola had been opened by the tank crew to get some fresh air. The Taliban wouldn't approach a tank but they learnt that it can be approached from the rear if the commander's machine gun wasn't manned just like they learnt that they stood a chance to hit a gunship when it lost altitude to examine the ground and after firing on it, they would run into their tunnels because they knew the Gunship would run out of fuel and ammo eventually and will have to leave. They even managed to hit a cobra in Khyber Agency and took a couple of tries on them in Bajaur as well, even managing to hit an Mi-17 that was resupplying a border post.

The number u are telling doesn't telly .. maybe because what u consider as destroyed does not count as such with us tankers ....as per my information ... the unit operating in the region lost only one tank .. and till the time they were there, there toll was only one and that was in Bajaur. RPGs and rocket hits on tanks is quite common in those ops .. i have personally taken more than a dozen of them ... that tank was surely taken down by RR direct hit on the left side... i personally know officers of the unit and after reading your post, i again talked to one of their majors and he told me again that they lost only one tank in bajaur ... anyways... may be the figure you are talking about ... '4' is the total no of tanks lost in ops so far ... 2 in Buner.... most likely due to SPG-9 fire ... (carl gustav talk above is highly presumptive) .... and one lost in SWA ... belonging to FC ... rest the tankers have been pretty ok as far as ops are concerned .... obviously there have been incidents of direct RPG hits .... i can account for many of them .... but i still doubt that we lost 4 tanks in Bajaur alone ..!!!!

 

[Icarus]

The number u are telling doesn't telly .. maybe because what u consider as destroyed does not count as such with us tankers ....as per my information ... the unit operating in the region lost only one tank .. and till the time they were there, there toll was only one and that was in Bajaur. RPGs and rocket hits on tanks is quite common in those ops .. i have personally taken more than a dozen of them ... that tank was surely taken down by RR direct hit on the left side... i personally know officers of the unit and after reading your post, i again talked to one of their majors and he told me again that they lost only one tank in bajaur ... anyways... may be the figure you are talking about ... '4' is the total no of tanks lost in ops so far ... 2 in Buner.... most likely due to SPG-9 fire ... (carl gustav talk above is highly presumptive) .... and one lost in SWA ... belonging to FC ... rest the tankers have been pretty ok as far as ops are concerned .... obviously there have been incidents of direct RPG hits .... i can account for many of them .... but i still doubt that we lost 4 tanks in Bajaur alone ..!!!!

By lost, I mean taken out of action. If you read my initial post you will see that I mentioned that the tanks were sent to HIT and they said that they will most likely be salvageable. Another reason why these numbers don't come up could possibly be the fact that 3 of these tanks belonged to Bajaur Scouts and not the Army. 4 in total were transferred to the Bajaur Scouts and out of those, one remains in active service.

 

[Iceman]

By lost, I mean taken out of action. If you read my initial post you will see that I mentioned that the tanks were sent to HIT and they said that they will most likely be salvageable. Another reason why these numbers don't come up could possibly be the fact that 3 of these tanks belonged to Bajaur Scouts and not the Army. 4 in total were transferred to the Bajaur Scouts and out of those, one remains in active service.

i guess thats the reason then ... and yes you are right .. many a tanks taken out of action during ops have been refitted in HIT ... so we dont count them as destroyed ....!!! .. anyways .. tankers have done a great job out there ... :d .. thats for sure ...!!!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

i guess thats the reason then ... and yes you are right .. many a tanks taken out of action during ops have been refitted in HIT ... so we dont count them as destroyed ....!!! .. anyways .. tankers have done a great job out there ... :d .. thats for sure ...!!!

You guys referred to the Al Jazira program “on the front lines” and it just brings up one scene where Rageh Omaar joins the army on an assault on the Taliban in the tribal area. They go past that burnt out tank. the atmosphere is all charged up. And the assault team comprises of infantry on foot and a troop of tanks supported by other vehicles. The advance comes to an abrupt halt when a tank commander is seen on a mobile talking to someone and the battalion is ordered to return to base. This was pretty much an anti-climax to this whole build up.

From the 7 minutes onwards you would notice a destroyed tank (T-59?) from the cut out window of the truck carrying troops later on its quiet sobering to see our assault team equipped with tanks and infantry forced to turn back. The cynical remarks on the video page don’t help either.

looking at the area I know its not advisable to walk the tanks into an ambush but when we know that the opponent doesn’t have armour against our armour and only RPGs and IEDs then I find it hard to defend the decision. It would have helped to see a follow up on this assault but never mind. Those tanks could have wrecked havoc firing from range but found it appropriate in retreating.

 

[Iceman]

You guys referred to the Al Jazira program “on the front lines” and it just brings up one scene where Rageh Omaar joins the army on an assault on the Taliban in the tribal area. They go past that burnt out tank. the atmosphere is all charged up. And the assault team comprises of infantry on foot and a troop of tanks supported by other vehicles. The advance comes to an abrupt halt when a tank commander is seen on a mobile talking to someone and the battalion is ordered to return to base. This was pretty much an anti-climax to this whole build up.

From the 7 minutes onwards you would notice a destroyed tank (T-59?) from the cut out window of the truck carrying troops later on its quiet sobering to see our assault team equipped with tanks and infantry forced to turn back. The cynical remarks on the video page don’t help either.

looking at the area I know its not advisable to walk the tanks into an ambush but when we know that the opponent doesn’t have armour against our armour and only RPGs and IEDs then I find it hard to defend the decision. It would have helped to see a follow up on this assault but never mind. Those tanks could have wrecked havoc firing from range but found it appropriate in retreating.

I have seen this part of the video a million times .... what u have assessed is exactly any layman would do ... i have been in these ops ... its much more complicated than just rolling in and playing havoc .. i wish it was this easy ... the reason tanks move back and we have done it on other occasions as well, is when the intensity if resistance is too much for the assaulting tps to over come. Remember, its not a conventional war, when the fire opens up, it takes a lot of focused attention even to know the locations from where the fire is coming. Unless that is done, tank fire can not be effectively directed. We have to play safe, there is hairline difference between bravery and bravado or should i say sheer stupidity. Leaving tanks alone without the inf support is not an advocated options. Tanks need close infantry support against enemies short range anti tank weapons, may it even be RPGs, because it becomes virtually impossible to salvage a tank that has been mobility killed and the crew is naturally done for as well. The case in point is the Bajaur incident. In which, the tank, was just driven off track and under intense firing, it could not be recovered. It was impossible for anyone to go out in the open and try and salvage the machine. The recovery to a broken down tank has to be applied, tank is not a self recovery vehicle. And that requires exposure of manpower to elements. These are necessary sacrifices that need to be made for a cause. So why do tanks turn back is because, the inf support was not there for them and tanks naturally could not be left alone. Plus, we are an army. We are not a militia with limited options. Once we tried to enter Sultanwas, the resistance was too strong, and not that we could not have over come that, but it was envisaged to be casualty heavy, so the commander told us to roll back.... and exercised other options. Heavy artillery bombardment followed by the Air Force. Our men are valuable trained men, and our commanders, very rightly believe that there is no point in putting them at unnecessary risk. And very rightly so. We are not there to score points, we are there to win the battle. We ultimately got bajaur didn't we? Its just that we re evaluated our plans, exercised other options and prevailed. Thats the military way of doing things. Otherwise, history surely cannot deny, where there have been requirement of heavy sacrifices, we have never turned our back to anything. We have proven ourselves. Its just the media likes to project the Talibans are 10 feet tall and amazing fighters. They are actually nothing but blatant cowards and midgets at heart........

 

[Iceman]

In fighting these areas, ranges that tanks so have an advantage are not found. We have even been fighting and firing at ranges that are even the below computation range of a ballistic computer. Its a very different kinda fight .... tanks are more of moving heavy guns rather than the shock action mobile heavy machines in these conflicts ..... unless u have been in it, its really hard to understand the peculiarities of this kinda combat ...!!!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

In fighting these areas, ranges that tanks so have an advantage are not found. We have even been fighting and firing at ranges that are even the below computation range of a ballistic computer. Its a very different kinda fight .... tanks are more of moving heavy guns rather than the shock action mobile heavy machines in these conflicts ..... unless u have been in it, its really hard to understand the peculiarities of this kinda combat ...!!!

I understand much more than a normal civilian can because I have had the privilege to spend time on the front lines in the tribal areas during 80s and in Azad Kashmir recently . belonging to an army family with father, uncles, grand uncles, cousins meant that I grew up in this world has given me the insight not many non uniformed people can imagine or think of.

I was deliberately commenting on the face value of the video (layman as you put it) tank without infantry is vulnerable. I just wanted to see how you or someone else will explain it. The key word you used was about the ambiguity about the origin/ direction of fire from Taliban. that’s all I needed, rest is pretty much obvious for me but a good read for anyone who doesn’t know about hand in hand role of infantry and armour in a battle.
Committing tanks without infantry support would have been ill advised and risking our infantry for the sake of using tanks against the Taliban would have meant loosing valuable infantry when the terrain favoured the Taliban who had layed out the ambush . Maybe gunships with the help of their high altitude observation would have helped in locating and eliminating the Taliban but they also have their limitation (fuel +ammo, availability ) I know so well how different we are to Americans who would call air support even f they hear AK-47 from range, we just don’t have that kind of unlimited recourse luxury.) Now I think about this incident a bit more I realise that maybe that retreat would have disappointed Taliban. They would have had been banking on some hot head deciding to go ahead no matter what thus inflicting casualties and then fleeing from the well rehearsed and worked out escape route.


In addition to infantry, in the changing modern warfare we got IFVs taking on the front role in an COIN operations where the tanks have become the hunters and the IFVs the actual killers. (ref Iraq urban warfare, where the tanks took the fire and helped the IFVs to finish off the insurgents) . Do you agree? Have you seen our APCs more effectively covering the role or both tank and infantry on foot due to it being more agile and low profile + more protected than the solider on foot? The kind of terrain in the tribal areas doesn’t support the traditional use of tanks. you are 100% right these tanks have more or less the role of self propelled artillery (of course with more agility than a our fixed turret 8 inch SP gun) as unlike plans of Punjab we don’t have the luxury of charging into the enemy defences.

Having said that, just like other armies, I have seen our tanks also guarding bypasses, important intersections and tunnels in the tribal areas and together with infantry they can see off any assault no matter how ambitious that maybe. My guess is that’s what happened (destroyed by tanks?) to those aspiring Taliban suicide drivers that were used by TTP as their main weapons during their waves of attacks on the advancing Pakistan army during the operation Rah e Nijat. By the way how did you find our 130mm Artillery in this conflict?

Re media claims about Taliban, I give it as much credence as much I give to the speeches of Nawaz and Zardari when they shed tears in the name of serving the nation. As it happens that they are very effective in their media camaign because our newly “liberated” media wants to religiously follow the course of our pseudo left wing liberals and right wing Taliban supporters who cant go to bed without blaming Pakistan for everything in their life and even the circumstances that led to their birth.