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Pervez Hoodbhoy's Secular Delusion

Another interesting Hadith, maybe our woke friends can also take something from it:

View attachment 653088

https://sunnah.com/muslim/54/45

And we all know that all the Europeans and American see themselves in the tradition of Rome. As Muslims we should try to copy those good qualities the Sahabi described in the Byzantines/Romans. Alhamdulillah for the guidance of Islam, Alhamdulillah for being Muslim and havin Pakistan as strong country with even stronger Muslim identity. There are many more Ahadith regarding the end time and as I heard about them first time I thougt: "Come on that's fake" but then I checked the references myself and was just overwhelmed. Alhamdulillah!

@Sabretooth @Starlord @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Desert Fox @LeGenD @Psychic @Dr. Strangelove
Indeed. And in the 20th century Fascism (from Roman Fasces) took up the torch of the Roman tradition once more and sought to address the very social ills in the West we are seeing today.

This again proves the Prophethood of Muhammad (SAW) and shows that he was Divinely guided and that the Quran is the Word of Allah (SWT).
 
Honestly I thought I would stay away from the topic as @Desert Fox @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Psychic and others have already said nicely what I would say but this is how i take this .

I will start with the Hoodbhoy, Again as i said time and time again he is just seeking attention from a specific set of audience, he has no authority or educational background of Theology and Islamic jurisdiction hence he has no means of poking in things which he is ignorant of but this is Pakistan, and as Desert Fox said Pakistani liberals are worse of their kind, if a Mullah or Imam talks about science or other things they are quick to point it out that why Mullah is poking their heads in things they have no knowledge of off, but now as Hoodbhoy is spewing venom and ignorant rants against Islam hence Pakistani Liberals are like " Kash ap mere Walid hote " ..Hypocrisy ki bhi had hoti hai ..

Second Point, Let me explain it through a more scientific ways, so lets assume there is a experiment which is done and proven right by a famous Scientist/Physicist now some scientist in Pakistan try to replicate the experiment but he is putting the equation wrong, so should we say the Scientific method is wrong or we will blame the human error for it ? Logic says we will blame it on the person, cause its he/she who is not using the equations right, so when it comes to Islamic system and Islam as a religion it is brought to us by Allah , presented and lived through by Muhammad Pbuh, and now we Muslims all over the world trying to replicate the system and hence we are failing and not getting the desired results, so should we blame the System or Allah or Islam for it ? or we say its our Human error that is to blame ? the last we saw Islamic system in its entirety was the time of Omar Abul Aziz and since then Islamic Caliphate has transformed into Islamic Kingdoms . Every single Atheist whom I listened to has used the two countries example to degrade the Islamic system Iran and KSA , every time they point it out to these two countries to say this is how Islamic system is, but let me ask these dumb idiots this question, In Islam there is no king, there is a Caliph which has to chosen by Shura and people through the consensus, last I checked the KSA has been ruled by the Kings and their dynasty and off springs, and Iran is supreme Leader is a Imam which is a very vague . So none of these countries are actually following the Islamic rules and Jurisdictions , both countries and in fact every Islamic country's and its Economy rely upon banks and Interest and Interest in Islam is like going to War with Allah and his Prophet .

Actually Islamic System was never meant to be implemented in isolation of one Tribe or a country, it will never work if only one country will try to bring a Islamic rule in their boundary , there is no borders in a Islamic state and everyone is free to travel within the Islamic state without Visa or Passport, is there any country who does that ?No , we know that we will never be able to bring the True Islamic System into play hence we follow anyone who implement 1-2 rules from the Shariah , such as Zia or Erdogan .. none of them were even close to implementing the Shariah ruling or bringing forward something that might unite but yet a lot of Muslims stick to them and consider them as some Leader who will bring back the golden era of Islam, they wont .
honestly I am a bit surprised that people misses a very important point that the declaration of Prophet's Prophet hood was one of the major signs of End time, hence the clock is ticking for this world and whole humanity . And we all know that Fitna and Chaos will overcome the Muslims and Islamic world, the only person who will restore the Islam in its true form will be Mehdi and before him all hell will break lose, so for us to even consider that this or that will bring forward the true essence of Islam is foolish to say the least, we Plan and Allah plan and Allah is the best Planner always remember that, it is his will that will always come to reality not ours and we already know his will ..

Coming to more modern times, when British Empire gives Independence to these Vessels states in ME, they restrict themselves in to their borders, no one was willing or has the will to bring together all of the ME to form a Powerful Islamic state with a central Govt in Medina , Family of Saud was happy to gain back the Saudi Arabia from Ottoman , and the rest of Arabs build their own Countries based of their own tribal cultures and the Islam was lost in history . To their support I believe even if they did, their countries will fall if they implement Islam in its true form within few decades, there are lots of challenges to overcome the biggest would be economical, how do you put forward a country which would not run its economy without Interest and interference of the western Colonial powers ? then there is threat of Sectarianism and Tribal differences, then we have rough Organizations like CIA and MOSSAD who would assassinate Leaders and even Caliphs to bring chaos and destruction to any country that would dare step away from them , it was so easy to bring people among you to fight and bring civil wars in the name of change and Democracy , and we saw just that in ME and we all know how it end for ME right ? and irony is that they did not even try to bring Islamic state to live .

What we have today is a system that is neither Islamic nor Democratic , but its a disgusting rotten mixture of Western Democracy with Sectarianism with the cultural influence system , Islam overcome all of these things but yet we have it , just take Pakistan as example if we try to own up our religion of Islam, people say that we are trying to be Arabs than Arabs themselves, when we try to become more like Western Liberals and secular's then people say they are losing their oneself , ask yourself this how many of Pakistan's would go against the constitution of Pakistan for the collective good of Islam and Islamic Ummah ? many of us Pakistani doesn't even believe in concept of Ummah and we make fun of those who do, Many of us feel proud of being a Pakistani than a Muslim despite them calling themselves as Muslims . We want to be proudly accept a system for which even half of western People fight against, Ask yourself if Western Democracy was so perfect, if Secularism was so good then why People in West are so depressed ? why they believe their countries are rotten ? why the family system failing there ? why there is no concept of Morality , shame , decency there ? why practices such as homosexuality , bestiality , pedophilia and incest is rising there ? Why certain race and certain people are treated differently ? Why people's whole career were ended because of their disagreement on homosexuality ? are we to believe that west is a tolerant society and a role model Society for us to follow ? and why should we ? we are not Europeans or nor South/North Americans, we are our own religion , culture and identity , why is it bad for us to hold on to it ? I see Europeans hold on to theirs and they are proud but its wrong for us why ??

I am not going to write conclusion for my post, I will write if someone ask me for it .. I will leave for people with rational minds to figure it by themselves .
 
Honestly I thought I would stay away from the topic as @Desert Fox @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Psychic and others have already said nicely what I would say but this is how i take this .

I will start with the Hoodbhoy, Again as i said time and time again he is just seeking attention from a specific set of audience, he has no authority or educational background of Theology and Islamic jurisdiction hence he has no means of poking in things which he is ignorant of but this is Pakistan, and as Desert Fox said Pakistani liberals are worse of their kind, if a Mullah or Imam talks about science or other things they are quick to point it out that why Mullah is poking their heads in things they have no knowledge of off, but now as Hoodbhoy is spewing venom and ignorant rants against Islam hence Pakistani Liberals are like " Kash ap mere Walid hote " ..Hypocrisy ki bhi had hoti hai ..

Second Point, Let me explain it through a more scientific ways, so lets assume there is a experiment which is done and proven right by a famous Scientist/Physicist now some scientist in Pakistan try to replicate the experiment but he is putting the equation wrong, so should we say the Scientific method is wrong or we will blame the human error for it ? Logic says we will blame it on the person, cause its he/she who is not using the equations right, so when it comes to Islamic system and Islam as a religion it is brought to us by Allah , presented and lived through by Muhammad Pbuh, and now we Muslims all over the world trying to replicate the system and hence we are failing and not getting the desired results, so should we blame the System or Allah or Islam for it ? or we say its our Human error that is to blame ? the last we saw Islamic system in its entirety was the time of Omar Abul Aziz and since then Islamic Caliphate has transformed into Islamic Kingdoms . Every single Atheist whom I listened to has used the two countries example to degrade the Islamic system Iran and KSA , every time they point it out to these two countries to say this is how Islamic system is, but let me ask these dumb idiots this question, In Islam there is no king, there is a Caliph which has to chosen by Shura and people through the consensus, last I checked the KSA has been ruled by the Kings and their dynasty and off springs, and Iran is supreme Leader is a Imam which is a very vague . So none of these countries are actually following the Islamic rules and Jurisdictions , both countries and in fact every Islamic country's and its Economy rely upon banks and Interest and Interest in Islam is like going to War with Allah and his Prophet .

Actually Islamic System was never meant to be implemented in isolation of one Tribe or a country, it will never work if only one country will try to bring a Islamic rule in their boundary , there is no borders in a Islamic state and everyone is free to travel within the Islamic state without Visa or Passport, is there any country who does that ?No , we know that we will never be able to bring the True Islamic System into play hence we follow anyone who implement 1-2 rules from the Shariah , such as Zia or Erdogan .. none of them were even close to implementing the Shariah ruling or bringing forward something that might unite but yet a lot of Muslims stick to them and consider them as some Leader who will bring back the golden era of Islam, they wont .
honestly I am a bit surprised that people misses a very important point that the declaration of Prophet's Prophet hood was one of the major signs of End time, hence the clock is ticking for this world and whole humanity . And we all know that Fitna and Chaos will overcome the Muslims and Islamic world, the only person who will restore the Islam in its true form will be Mehdi and before him all hell will break lose, so for us to even consider that this or that will bring forward the true essence of Islam is foolish to say the least, we Plan and Allah plan and Allah is the best Planner always remember that, it is his will that will always come to reality not ours and we already know his will ..

Coming to more modern times, when British Empire gives Independence to these Vessels states in ME, they restrict themselves in to their borders, no one was willing or has the will to bring together all of the ME to form a Powerful Islamic state with a central Govt in Medina , Family of Saud was happy to gain back the Saudi Arabia from Ottoman , and the rest of Arabs build their own Countries based of their own tribal cultures and the Islam was lost in history . To their support I believe even if they did, their countries will fall if they implement Islam in its true form within few decades, there are lots of challenges to overcome the biggest would be economical, how do you put forward a country which would not run its economy without Interest and interference of the western Colonial powers ? then there is threat of Sectarianism and Tribal differences, then we have rough Organizations like CIA and MOSSAD who would assassinate Leaders and even Caliphs to bring chaos and destruction to any country that would dare step away from them , it was so easy to bring people among you to fight and bring civil wars in the name of change and Democracy , and we saw just that in ME and we all know how it end for ME right ? and irony is that they did not even try to bring Islamic state to live .

What we have today is a system that is neither Islamic nor Democratic , but its a disgusting rotten mixture of Western Democracy with Sectarianism with the cultural influence system , Islam overcome all of these things but yet we have it , just take Pakistan as example if we try to own up our religion of Islam, people say that we are trying to be Arabs than Arabs themselves, when we try to become more like Western Liberals and secular's then people say they are losing their oneself , ask yourself this how many of Pakistan's would go against the constitution of Pakistan for the collective good of Islam and Islamic Ummah ? many of us Pakistani doesn't even believe in concept of Ummah and we make fun of those who do, Many of us feel proud of being a Pakistani than a Muslim despite them calling themselves as Muslims . We want to be proudly accept a system for which even half of western People fight against, Ask yourself if Western Democracy was so perfect, if Secularism was so good then why People in West are so depressed ? why they believe their countries are rotten ? why the family system failing there ? why there is no concept of Morality , shame , decency there ? why practices such as homosexuality , bestiality , pedophilia and incest is rising there ? Why certain race and certain people are treated differently ? Why people's whole career were ended because of their disagreement on homosexuality ? are we to believe that west is a tolerant society and a role model Society for us to follow ? and why should we ? we are not Europeans or nor South/North Americans, we are our own religion , culture and identity , why is it bad for us to hold on to it ? I see Europeans hold on to theirs and they are proud but its wrong for us why ??

I am not going to write conclusion for my post, I will write if someone ask me for it .. I will leave for people with rational minds to figure it by themselves .
Excellent post.

It reminds me of the concept of Apolitea, but nonetheless on a personal level as well as community level we should continue to advocate for Islamic principles because at the end of the day the world has many problems and no man-made system has offered any solutions but rather have exacerbated these problems as well as creating new ones in addition. Only Islam has the solutions for the world's problems as well as means for true fulfillment and prosperity no matter if one is poor or rich in material terms. But Muslims themselves have to implement Islam within their own lives and on the grassroots level, but instead some Muslims are watering down Islam and mixing it with Liberalism to appease their Liberal overlords.

Imagine if the Prophet (SAW) and the Sahaba (RA) mixed the pure message of Islam with some pagan Arab traditions to appease the Quraish? Honestly, that is unimaginable. But today's Muslims value comfort and perception in the eyes of non-Muslims more than preserving and preaching the pure message of Islam.
 
Excellent post.

It reminds me of the concept of Apolitea, but nonetheless on a personal level as well as community level we should continue to advocate for Islamic principles because at the end of the day the world has many problems and no man-made system has offered any solutions but rather have exacerbated these problems as well as creating new ones in addition. Only Islam has the solutions for the world's problems as well as means for true fulfillment and prosperity no matter if one is poor or rich in material terms. But Muslims themselves have to implement Islam within their own lives and on the grassroots level, but instead some Muslims are watering down Islam and mixing it with Liberalism to appease their Liberal overlords.

Imagine if the Prophet (SAW) and the Sahaba (RA) mixed the pure message of Islam with some pagan Arab traditions to appease the Quraish? Honestly, that is unimaginable. But today's Muslims value comfort and perception in the eyes of non-Muslims more than preserving and preaching the pure message of Islam.

I completely Agree with you, and As i mentioned Islamic system or Shariah law can not work in isolation , for this system to work as it was suppose to the entire Islamic world has to be united, and we saw that in times of Prophet and his successor . As for Prophet and Sahabah, those people fought their own relatives , brother against brother , cousin against cousin , son against father , uncle against Niece/Nephew they even kill their closest relatives only for cause of Allah , those who disbelieve fought in badr and Uhud and died at hands of Muslims, they are in Hell fire and those who died fighting for Islam will be in high Heavens, that is the level of commitment they had just for the sake of Allah, no sweet words , no tolerance and other BS, no live and let live , no Secularism .. they were like, we will come to terms when you accept that there is no God but Allah , if not that there is nothing to talk and we will fight until one of us perish, that is why those people were best among the world can ever produce and us , Well today's Generation is the worse the world might ever produce .
 
Contradiction much? I think you are confused or talking out from both ends of your mouth: "religion is a hurdle to scientific progress", "Islam has no expiry date", "I will not be learning "secularism" or anything that limits the rule of law of Islam".

You are having a tough time digesting the opinion because you come from the other end of the political compass and hence you can only criticize the other extreme without realizing that there exists a ground between two realities and hence, line between ideologies and common sense become blur. Lets see if I called for a secular renaissance or common sense :

Religion by every means CAN and HAS become impediment to human progress. The thing you call "contradiction" is my argument that Islam was not designed by Allah in a way that it becomes a hurdle in the way of human progress. If however, it is hijacked by clerics as they become the "intermediates" between man and god, then the society cannot flourish.

Secularism is no answer to a country like Pakistan, but Mullahs ,sure , are not. And this is what Hoodbhoy, amoung many others, stresses upon.

Furthermore,

Which "Caliph" is "religiously" "oppressing" Pakistanis? Most of it's elites and leaders are all western educated LOL

You sure won't find a Mullah leader but they are, in fact, the king makers since '47 and you will find all the Western educated Pakistani leaders patronizing them and giving them so much respect that they won't even sit down in their presence.

Yes, all of these are reasons for the failure of the secular system

Environmental degradation, deforestation , calamities are not reasons for failure of the "secular system".

Furthermore,
but yet the vast majority of secular countries, Mexico, Romania and Liberia, to name a few, are either in just as bad a state or even far more worse than Pakistan, despite their secularism.

At least you got the point that secularism has nothing to do with the problems of a nation. If religion does not influence any institution of a state, and the institutions fail to perform due to inefficiency, then we will say =

"The institution failed due to inefficiencies"

However, if an efficient institution fails due to undue religious intrusion, then we will say =

"The institution failed due to religious influence"

See, how I did not demand to make Pakistan a fukcing secular nation even though I could. I just said that religious influence can only be sustained in a few institutions such as law ministry, welfare, taxes etc.

But if religious bigotry makes its way into ministry of Science and Technology ( Moon sighting issue ) or in the ministry of health ( Fukcing killing women for giving polio drops to children ) then it is "common sense" to have "secularism" in those select institutions.

Your write-up just points out random sentences from my post and comments on them without any context.
 
Im a US based physician. My income is in the top 1 percent of US workers. And I will tell you what has happened the last few months. At work...its every man for himself. People stealing masks, others disappearing from shifts when COVID patients surge. At home...rioters tagging businesses with slogans like “eat the rich”. Blacks running around looting while the police do nothing. Statues of national figures being spray painted or taken down. Deficits as far as the eye can see. Lines at food pantries around the block.

It took literally one month of lock down for the most enlightened, secular advanced liberal democracy on earth to be brought to its knees.

My parents were in Pakistan vacationing when the lock down hit. Alhamdulillah they are back now. If you ask them how it was they’ll say at first they were nervous/worried. But then it was all normal. People had hardship, but many helped many others. All of my parents neighbors paid their workers despite telling them to go home. A neighbor from the next block kept searching for flights out of pakistan for my parents and would text me constantly. A physician friend came from another city to check on my parents.

Pakistan is a hard country. There’s a lot of injustice, a lot to be worked on. But I can say without doubt that if the money stops....the US will be like a zombie apocalypse movie while Pakistan will just soldier on.
 
400 educators from all over Pakistan came up with this curriculum over an extensive period of time. This was put to PH and we can all see the discussion here; see the full thread for the multiple videos.

btw, children’s television similar to America’s PBS programs for children like Mister Rogers Neighborhood can go along way in helping kids understand how to deal with real issues. Mister Rogers never talked down to kids, but with them.



He taught children and helped build up their emotional and mental health, which coupled with a well rounded curriculum will go along way in encouraging children to do their best and deal with life no matter if they become one profession or another

 
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Pervez is at it again! Hoodbhoy, like all Westernized modernists, recycles the same few talking points ad nauseam.

1. Islam is backwards. Western secularism is the answer!
2. Islamic education makes people dumb. Western secular education makes people smart!
3. Islamic institutions are associated with terrorism. Western secular institutions are associated with prosperity and progress!

That pretty much summarizes everything Hoodbhoy has ever written in his life.

Such simplistic points might have impressed Western-intoxicated dullards 50 years ago. But it is embarrassing for him to keep trotting out the same lines in this day and age, now that most people are acutely aware of the empty promises of Western "enlightenment."

How ironic that Pervez sings the praises of "critical thinking," yet he is unable to think critically about whether "parroting" the liberal secularism of the West will yield prosperity and happiness for Pakistan or any Muslim country.

For those of us living in the enlightened secular West, we can only chuckle at the child-like naivete of anyone who thinks the West is a utopia all should aspire to.

Turn to any news channel to see American cities literally burning to the ground as protests rage. Watch the violent divisions ripping the country apart. All these violent protesters enjoyed a liberal secular education without the influence of the scary molvi boogey monster of Hoodbhoy's imagination.

The average American is thousands of dollars in debt, lives pay check to check, slogging endless hours at a job he hates, the only thing he looks forward to is the weekend, where he will probably sit in front of his laptop and watch Netflix or order some junk he doesn't need from Amazon. He is living the "perfect" life of obedient, senseless consumerism his secular education has so perfectly prepared him for!

Think of the caricatures of the depressed consumerist alone in his apartment with no family, no faith, no future. Believe it or not, that caricature is the reality for the majority.

And those who do get married, they fare no better. What kind of love can you have for someone you know has been loved and dumped by a dozen (two dozen?) others before you? This is the living nightmare produced by Western secular values. Marriage is seen as such a dead end that most are now opting to avoid it entirely. Many children grow up completely cut off from at least one parent. Many have no clue who their fathers even are! Forget about extended family and the comfort, joy, and support that comes with it.

Liberal secularism not only destroys the akhira with its militant atheism. It also destroys every human aspect of what makes life of the dunya beautiful -- committed love, a happy and devoted family, the sense of purpose that comes with serving one's Creator. These are luxuries most Westerners no longer even know about, let alone enjoy.

But liberal secularism at least brings prosperity and that counts for something, right? No, even this is not true. Many countries have accepted the devil's offer of sacrificing religion and traditional values for the promise of material progress. But Iblis, of course, is a liar.

What amazing progress does a secular country like Romania enjoy? What booming riches does a secular country like Mexico enjoy? What economic advancement does a secular country like Liberia enjoy?

If religion is regressive and secularization and secular education are the path to economic progress, why is it that so many 100% secularized countries have languished for decades at the bottom of the development list?

In reality, the secularization of these countries only serves the Western imperial masters who suck these countries dry, usurping their resources and cheap labor in exchange for advancement that never comes.

It is the oldest trick in the book.

But it is a trick that is made more effective when the Western-educated elites of those countries peddle propaganda to the masses, trying to convince the people -- on behalf of their Western masters -- to abandon their religion, abandon their traditional values, abandon deen.

Elites like Hoodbhoy have tried playing this trick on the Muslims for long enough. But no one is falling for it anymore.

It is time for these old propagandists to retire.

"Whoever makes himself blind against the mention/remembrance [dhikr] of al-RaHmān, We assign for him a devil who accompanies him all the time. And they (the devils) prevent such people from the (right) way, while they deem themselves to be on the right path. Until when such a person will come to Us, he will say (to the devil), “If only there were the distance of East and West between me and you, because you were the worst companion!" And (it will be said to such people,) “Since you were wrongdoers, it will never benefit you today that you are sharing the punishment with each other.” [Quran 43:36-39]






@Alternatiiv @Hiraa @truthfollower

@AUz @The Accountant


The thing people like don’t understand Islam .. pretty sure he never read the Quran with understanding ....

having said most Pakistani don’t actually understand Islam or apply it correctly. If did we wouldn’t be in this mess..
 

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