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Taliban Losses Are No Sure Gain for Pakistanis

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By JANE PERLEZ and PIR ZUBAIR SHAH
Published: June 27, 2009

MARDAN, Pakistan — For the past month and a half, the Pakistani military has claimed success in retaking the Swat Valley from the Taliban, clawing back its own territory from insurgents who only a short time ago were extending their reach toward the heartland of the country.

Yet from a helicopter flying low over the valley last week, the low-rise buildings of Mingora, the largest city in Swat, now deserted and under a 24-hour curfew, appeared unscathed. In the surrounding countryside, farmers had harvested wheat and red onions on their unscarred land.

All that is testament to the fact that the Taliban mostly melted away without a major fight, possibly to return when the military withdraws or to fight elsewhere, military analysts say. About two million people have been displaced in Swat and the surrounding area as the military has carried out its campaign.

The reassertion of control over Swat has at least temporarily denied the militants a haven they coveted inside Pakistan proper. The offensive has also won strong support from the United States, which has urged Pakistan to engage the militants.

But the Taliban’s decision to scatter leaves the future of Swat, and Pakistan’s overall stability, under continued threat, military analysts and some politicians say.

The tentative results in Swat also do not bode well for the military’s new push in the far more treacherous terrain of South Waziristan, another insurgent stronghold, where officials have vowed to take on the leader of the Pakistani Taliban, Baitullah Mehsud, who remains Pakistan’s most wanted man.

Signs abound that the military’s campaign in Swat is less than decisive. The military extended its deadline for ending the campaign. Even in the areas where progress has been made, the military controls little more than urban centers and roads, say those who have fled the areas. The military has also failed to kill or capture even one top Taliban commander.

It was “very disappointing,” said Aftab Ahmed Sherpao, a senior politician from the region, that none of the commanders had been eliminated. It turned out, he said, that early reports of the capture of Ibn Amin, a particularly brutal commander from Matta, were incorrect.

Many Taliban fighters have infiltrated the camps set up for those displaced by the fighting and are likely to return with them to Swat, said Himayatullah Mayar, the mayor of Mardan, the city where many of the refugees are staying. “Most of the Taliban shaved their beards, and they are living here with their families,” he said.

As of two weeks ago, the police had arrested 150 people in the camps suspected of being members of the Taliban, Mr. Mayar said. This figure did not include suspects arrested by the Intelligence Bureau, Pakistan’s domestic intelligence outfit, and the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, the country’s main spy agency, he said.

Meanwhile, the government, led by President Asif Ali Zardari, has yet to announce a full plan for how it will provide services like courts, policing and health care that will allow the refugees to return home and the government to fully assert control.

Those plans appear to be mired in conflict and mutual suspicion between the military and the civilian government, raising serious questions about whether the authorities can secure Swat and other areas and keep them from being taken back by the Taliban, military experts said.

“I’ve told the president and the prime minister and the chief of the army this is the time to act. Just take basic things and implement them,” said Gen. Nadeem Ahmad, the commander of the Special Support Group, an arm of the Pakistani military that is providing temporary buildings and some food for the displaced. “This is not talking rocket science.”

On a notepad, General Ahmad had drawn a chart of the four elements of what he called “lasting peace.” They were good government; improved delivery of services, including rebuilt schools; speedy justice (something the Taliban had provided); and social equity.

He appeared to be skeptical that those aspects could be delivered within what he called an essential one-year time frame. He said he had warned the leaders: “If you don’t deliver, it will be trouble. You will come back and do the operation again.”

Having witnessed past episodes of deal-making with the Taliban, the people of Swat say they want tangible proof that the military is serious this time and that they will be safe if they return home.

From the start, a rallying cry has been a demand that the army kill or capture Taliban leaders, a ruthless group of highly trained fighters, some with links to Al Qaeda. But the army has not been able to show any evidence that it killed any of the Taliban leaders.

The daily newspaper The News said in a recent editorial that unless Maulana Fazlullah, the Taliban’s main commander in Swat, and Mr. Mehsud, the country’s top enemy, were captured, “the Taliban are going to live to fight another day.”

Indeed, most of the damage from the recent fighting appears confined to small agricultural hamlets outside Mingora, according to interviews with displaced people. Some said they had heard from recent arrivals to the camps that areas 500 yards off the roads remained in control of the militants.

The “outlook was bleak” in Swat because the civilian government did not have the money or the skills to rebuild, said Shuja Nawaz, the author of a history of the Pakistani military and now the director of the South Asia Center at the Atlantic Council in Washington.

Most of the two million displaced people are still living in tent camps and cramped quarters with relatives and even strangers, in cities as far flung as the southern port of Karachi.

Many displaced people were fed up with the cruelties inflicted under Taliban rule and have backed the military campaign. But as the fighting drags on in places, the mood among them grows increasingly despondent.

Some displaced people said that they were angry at the army for indiscriminate shelling in civilian areas. Others said they were confused about why the military operation was even necessary.

“We had no problem with the Taliban,” Umar Ali, a poultry trader from Qambar in Swat, said as he sat on the veranda of a home in Swabi, a town filled with displaced people. “We’re here because of the military shelling. I’m a trader, and the thing that affects my life is the curfew.”

Earlier Pakistani campaigns against the Taliban do not offer an encouraging precedent. In Bajaur, a part of the tribal areas, two main economic centers, the market towns of Loe Sam and Inayat Kalay, remain in ruins nearly eight months after the army smashed them in pursuit of the Taliban and claimed victory.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/world/asia/28swat.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
 
Miss perlez makes sweeping statements in this entire article. for instance she said that taliban did not put up a fight in mingora yes. but she fails to mention how much fiigting there was in sultanwas and pir baba and other adjoining areas. she claims that none of the top leadership has been killed yes. but the americans have also not been able to kill any of the top leadership. it is incredibly hard to kill the leadership of these organizations because they are very well protected and are usually the first ones to run from a fight.
she also says that the army only controls the road and 500 m on the either side is controlled by the talibs if it were so then why arnt there more instances of ambushes in the swat as compared to Fata.
they also interview a poultry farmer and this is the first time i have heard anyone from swat who said that the taliban were good usually everyone hates these freaks.
something is seriously flawed in the way that this lady reports the news she tries extra hard to show that pakistan is falling apart.
 

Yes and the silence is deafening over there as it is here.


“I’ve told the president and the prime minister and the chief of the army this is the time to act. Just take basic things and implement them,” said Gen. Nadeem Ahmad, the commander of the Special Support Group, an arm of the Pakistani military that is providing temporary buildings and some food for the displaced. “This is not talking rocket science.”

Whats in it for Zardari? maybe if he were promised 10% he would get his finger out. No wait there is no 10% to gain in this case, oh well rocket science it is then.

It was “very disappointing,” said Aftab Ahmed Sherpao, a senior politician from the region, that none of the commanders had been eliminated. It turned out, he said, that early reports of the capture of Ibn Amin, a particularly brutal commander from Matta, were incorrect.

Expect to see many more disappointments Sherpo


On a notepad, General Ahmad had drawn a chart of the four elements of what he called “lasting peace.” They were good government; improved delivery of services, including rebuilt schools; speedy justice (something the Taliban had provided); and social equity.

Surely General Ahmad sahb cant be this naive? He can not seriously be expecting to see any of his conditions for lasting peace to be fulfilled, least of all good government


He appeared to be skeptical that those aspects could be delivered within what he called an essential one-year time frame. He said he had warned the leaders: “If you don’t deliver, it will be trouble. You will come back and do the operation again.”


Oh yes my worries as to the naivety of General Sahb have been alleviated.He is a very pragmatic man.


Having witnessed past episodes of deal-making with the Taliban, the people of Swat say they want tangible proof that the military is serious this time and that they will be safe if they return home.


The military acts on the orders of the government so tangible proof should be sought with the GOP and not the PA,and as we've already noted the army itself is skeptical as to the commitment of the Gop.So all in all its looking pretty bleak.


Meanwhile, the government, led by President Asif Ali Zardari, has yet to announce a full plan for how it will provide services like courts, policing and health care that will allow the refugees to return home and the government to fully assert control.

The delay in the announcement is most probably due to the fact that there is no such plan in the pipelines.


Those plans appear to be mired in conflict and mutual suspicion between the military and the civilian government, raising serious questions about whether the authorities can secure Swat and other areas and keep them from being taken back by the Taliban, military experts said.


The military it seems is already asking itself it was really worth the effort,blood sweat and toil?


The “outlook was bleak” in Swat because the civilian government did not have the money or the skills to rebuild, said Shuja Nawaz, the author of a history of the Pakistani military and now the director of the South Asia Center at the Atlantic Council in Washington.

Well there we have it in a nut shell, along with the lack of money and skills I would also add neither the will nor the concern.I can just picture Zardari toking on a fat cigar with a glass of gin and tonic in hand smirking while he says "frankly my dears I don't give a damn"
and why should he? We all know the only concern he has is for his 10%.
 
I'll single out this piece from the article

speedy justice (something the Taliban had provided);

They forgot to mention that this so called "speedu justive" involved whipping girls who wouldn't marry their men, shooting their fathers, punishments for listening to music & even shooting people whose shalwars went below their ankles. Speedy Taliban justice? I'll take our corrupt government's systems over those. I dislike Zardari, but even he's not as hypocritical as these Taliban, who claim to fight for Islam & then blow up Mosques & kidnap & murder people for money. The authors of this article do seem quite biased & seem to ignore the bad qualities of the Taliban. I'm sure this "Jane Perlez" hasn't lived as a woman under Taliban rule. Then she'd probably see a different picture.
 
I'll single out this piece from the article



They forgot to mention that this so called "speedu justive" involved whipping girls who wouldn't marry their men, shooting their fathers, punishments for listening to music & even shooting people whose shalwars went below their ankles. Speedy Taliban justice? I'll take our corrupt government's systems over those. I dislike Zardari, but even he's not as hypocritical as these Taliban, who claim to fight for Islam & then blow up Mosques & kidnap & murder people for money. The authors of this article do seem quite biased & seem to ignore the bad qualities of the Taliban. I'm sure this "Jane Perlez" hasn't lived as a woman under Taliban rule. Then she'd probably see a different picture.

You only take news that suits your preconceived notions.Have you ever asked yourself why you should believe and accept the propaganda against the Taliban from those who are at war with them and automatically reject neutral sources that do not support either side?
 
they also interview a poultry farmer and this is the first time i have heard anyone from swat who said that the taliban were good usually everyone hates these freaks.
something is seriously flawed in the way that this lady reports the news she tries extra hard to show that pakistan is falling apart.


The only thing that is flawed is your understanding, this person is a neutral observer and you question her account, but when you tune into PTV propaganda, you lap it up.
 
The only thing that is flawed is your understanding, this person is a neutral observer and you question her account, but when you tune into PTV propaganda, you lap it up.

I watch Al Jazeera, BBC, CNN, Dawn & read articles from all of their sites & also read Khaleej Times & Gulf News & access man y opther sources on the net. I have seen enough neutral sources to form an opinion on the Taliban & have talked to people who've sufferred due to them, not just Pakistanis but also Afghans. Why are you such an ignorant person? You have the internet at your hands, read some news from websites which actually carry more interviews & give more local sources of information. Get out of your shelll & see that you're not always right. You're an idiot if you assume everyone with an actual opinion watches PTV or FOX. Until you can show me some knowledge, I'll dismiss you as an idiot.
 
Also, objector, before you refer to the writer as "her", read it yourself. There are 2 writers. It's highly likely that the Pakistani one is not as neutral as you'd assume.
 
I'll single out this piece from the article

They forgot to mention that this so called "speedu justive" involved whipping girls who wouldn't marry their men

Well Panjab's information secretary, ANP govt in NWFP and chief justiice of pakistan all questioned its authenticity and some dismissed it as cheap proopoganda by NGO's. Why dont u believe them, since u r ready to believe all else they churn out?


punishments for listening to music
and what exactly is wrong with that?
& even shooting people whose shalwars went below their ankles. Speedy Taliban justice?
source? not Zafar Abbas, i hope.

I dislike Zardari, but even he's not as hypocritical
Let's see. 60 million dollars is not enough? I mean u have to be stoned to say that? what did u pop this morning?
 
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Well Panjab's information secretary, ANP govt in NWFP and chief justiice of pakistan all questioned its authenticity and some dismissed it as cheap proopoganda by NGO's. Why dont u believe them, since u r ready to believe all else they churn out?

[url="
- 1 - 17 Year old girl Flogged in Swat[/url]


and what exactly is wrong with that?

source? not Zafar Abbas, i hope.


Let's see. 60 million dollars is not enough? I mean u have to be stoned to say that? what did u pop this morning?

Give me a source that says you should be punished for listening to music if you want me to believe you & by source I want you to give me a quote form the Qur'an or an autehtic Hadith. By authentic, I mean one verified by either the Al Bukhari or the Muslim method.

As for Zardari, the Talibs have stolen larger amounts b looting banks and kidnapping people. They want us to release their prisoners when one of their main income sources is to kidnap kids and hold them for ransom. Really noble. Also, the fact that they've now started supporting & making money out of the drug trade shows their hypocrisy.

As for the flogging, none of those people are video analysts and the Taliban have done worse than flogging. Watch Dawn once in a while. They should what happened to a family who refused to marry their daughters to Taliban. The father was shot in his own home.

Also, the closing down girls' schools isn't justified in Islam, as far as I know.
 
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Give me a source that says you should be punished for listening to music if you want me to believe you & by source I want you to give me a quote form the Qur'an or an autehtic Hadith. By authentic, I mean one verified by either the Al Bukhari or the Muslim method.

Do you know the difference between ta'zeer and hadd? This hadith is in Bukhari and Muslim:
حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ حَدَّثَنِى ابْنُ وَهْبٍ أَخْبَرَنِى عَمْرٌو أَنَّ بُكَيْرًا حَدَّثَهُ قَالَ بَيْنَمَا أَنَا جَالِسٌ عِنْدَ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ يَسَارٍ إِذْ جَاءَ عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ جَابِرٍ فَحَدَّثَ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنَ يَسَارٍ ثُمَّ أَقْبَلَ عَلَيْنَا سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ يَسَارٍ فَقَالَ حَدَّثَنِى عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ جَابِرٍ أَنَّ أَبَاهُ حَدَّثَهُ أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ أَبَا بُرْدَةَ الأَنْصَارِىَّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ النَّبِىَّ - صلى الله عليه وسلم - يَقُولُ « لاَ تَجْلِدُوا فَوْقَ عَشْرَةِ أَسْوَاطٍ إِلاَّ فِى حَدٍّ مِنْ حُدُودِ اللَّهِ​

" Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: None should be given more than ten lashes, except in case of any Hadd out of the Hudood of Allah (where it is more)."

Do u know when ta'zeer can be applied. Music is one of the instances.
 

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