Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[mean_bird]

4-5 years is enough time to sort out engine problem, mature avionics, etc especially when the WS-10 is already fitted on the twin-engined J-11.

If Grifo supplied radar/avionics for fitting in F-7, then doing the same in JF-17 or FC-20 shouldn't be a problem. We know already from IDEAS2008, that an AESA is on offer.

ex-ACM also mentioned some "new" weapons being developed by the Chinese for themselves and for us. Then, he mentioned about "We will see the weapons trial on the FC-20" during IDEAS-2008.

All in all, it looks good if engine works out, which it should by this time-frame.

 

[Zob]

what i don't understand is why not buy the J10 now...and then go for a MLU program when the J10B comes out...i think even now a J10 will give us a good boost in fire power.....i mean we bought the F-16 block 15 not wait around for 20 years(even though we were made to) and buy the BLOCK 60s.....buy what you get now learn from it and help in development....

unfortunately i kind of understand what sir MASTAN KHAN meant when he said PAF always under performs and is short sighted and then complain in the future....

PAF after all helped in development of the F7s....so i don't know why we can't develop the J10s as our baby

 

[mean_bird]

what i don't understand is why not buy the J10 now...and then go for a MLU program when the J10B comes out...i think even now a J10 will give us a good boost in fire power.....i mean we bought the F-16 block 15 not wait around for 20 years(even though we were made to) and buy the BLOCK 60s.....buy what you get now learn from it and help in development....

unfortunately i kind of understand what sir MASTAN KHAN meant when he said PAF always under performs and is short sighted and then complain in the future....

PAF after all helped in development of the F7s....so i don't know why we can't develop the J10s as our baby

J-10, now, flies with a Russian engine. I am afraid you, I, or Mastan Khan cannot do anything about it unless we can develop our own engine. Fitting it with the WS-10, when they aren't ready would be akin to buying brand new flying coffins.

Secondly, there is not much the J-10 can offer as of now in terms of technology that the JF-17 won't have except better payload. The whole reason of buying J-10 is for the "punch power" or being "high-tech" which it would fail to deliver.

Thirdly, JF-17 are being bought on credit, Erieye is being bought on credit, loads of money has gone to F-16 both new and MLU, and the loads of accompanying ammunition. Its time we realized that a loan is not free money and has to be paid back too.

Last but not least, you cannot go begging for money from one hand, while purchasing defense equipment from the other. Any such move now will block the aid that is flowing, so the J-10 will ultimately end up costing its price plus the $5-7billion that is coming as aid.

 

[ahussains]

so we need at least 5 years to get all these things

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is true that the engine issue of the J 10B has to be resolved first and foremost, before pakistan acquires them---that is why we are looking at the start up delivery around 2014-15.

This situation is unlike that of F 7's. We increased the life span / between servicing of that engine.

Mean-bird is right in his assessment---we are going for the FC 20 is to increase the "Punch Power"---something as good as the BLK 52 and competing with the likes of rafael in the future with upgrades.

My personal belief and assessment is that Musharraf did us a favour by forcing paf to buy 2 chinese awacs---it totally changed the direction PAF was headed for---from unpredictable to predictable---from sanction prone to free at last---at least half of them.

 

[Munir]

If plan goes as planned then China will have it readu between 2012-2014.

 

[Arsalan]

quite true what mean bird said!!

at the present J10 is not offering much that we cannot get from the JF17, both are BVR, and BVR was the technology we wanted to induct in PAF as soon as possible, now as we have it in form of JF17 the plus points of J10 like extra payload, more speed are not enough to but such an expensive new plane!

now there is a question i have, when in 2014 we will be having the FC20 our JF17 would alos have been modified as proposed, westren avionics, engine and may be also some fire power from the west. so if the JF17 is upgraded as proposed, would it be suitable or helpful to get FC 20 in 2014 unless it turns out to be an Advance 4.5 generation with some stealty and deadly avionics and super weapons??

so do you think that FC20 will get so good to be a paksitani choice even with upgraded JF17
or
do you think that pakistan will ultimately lose intrest in the improvement of JF17, as there was a rumor of this being happening when the J10 was dispalyed first time!!

i will look forword for responce from you people!

regards

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Our current systems on the jf 17 would take us into the next 10 years of service. You just simply cannot upgrade systems after 4 to 5 years time. Now different batches may have upgraded systems to the prior batch ie the current batch of 42 aircraft will be of similiar or of same equipment.

The next batch would be obviously different in electronic equipment package.

JF 17---Fc 20---are different types of aircraft--one complements the other---but then otoh paf may go a different route depending upon the funds.

 

[araz]

quite true what mean bird said!!

at the present J10 is not offering much that we cannot get from the JF17, both are BVR, and BVR was the technology we wanted to induct in PAF as soon as possible, now as we have it in form of JF17 the plus points of J10 like extra payload, more speed are not enough to but such an expensive new plane!

now there is a question i have, when in 2014 we will be having the FC20 our JF17 would alos have been modified as proposed, westren avionics, engine and may be also some fire power from the west. so if the JF17 is upgraded as proposed, would it be suitable or helpful to get FC 20 in 2014 unless it turns out to be an Advance 4.5 generation with some stealty and deadly avionics and super weapons??

so do you think that FC20 will get so good to be a paksitani choice even with upgraded JF17
or
do you think that pakistan will ultimately lose intrest in the improvement of JF17, as there was a rumor of this being happening when the J10 was dispalyed first time!!

i will look forword for responce from you people!

regards

Bhai.
We have invested money in the JF17 project and are harping about the huge market that the thunder will have . Yet you expect s to lose interest in JF17 when FC20 arrives. The answer is a hefty NO!! You just cannot afford to lose interest in JF17. I have mentioned this before that one of my friend is an Ex RAF pilot. He says inspite of having the typhoon, the only fighter that they are afraid of to cause them a problem is the Gripen.Goes to show the advantage of having a small well linked up plane in a net centric environment. I think PAF will continue to develop the Thunder and make it high 4th Generation fighter, if funds allow it. If funds do not allow it ____ then we wont have funds for FC20 either.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[fatman17]

i think the west and the americans are more worried about the J-10 than the JF-17. the chinese are more keen to invest in future upgrades of the J-10 as more a/c are inducted in the PLAAF!

 

[mean_bird]

I agree with araz, JF-17 is our baby, its our backbone...you just cannot lose interest in a plane you intend to acquire 250 of. If there were such a thing, we wouldn't be saying we might need to go for 250 even when the initial understanding was for 150.

We thought of the concept of the JF-17, we developed it. If we wanted anything bigger, we could have designed a bigger plane similar to the F-16 or J-10 in terms of weight. But we knew our restrictions...financial restrictions ...and that is why we went for a light weight, low cost plane. Who wouldn't like his inventory to be full of nice big planes, but you have to do what your pocket dictates.

Having said that JF-17 doesn't complete our requirement because we also need some trucks for the bombs and Air superiority. But such 'trucks' are very expensive and we cannot afford to buy 250 of them, hence a division between the medium weight and the light weight aircrafts. Just see 36 F-16s are costing around $3 billion while you can probably get 150 JF-17 for that amount.

So instead of buying 72 F-16 for $6 billion, you can get 36 F-16 and 150 JF-17 and have squadrons that are a mixture of both..similar to F-15 and F-16 mixtures. Also you can use those medium/heavy fighters for deep strike and carrying heavy loads.

The only point where we can "lose interest" is if we discover a dozen or more oil wells.

 

[Arsalan]

Bhai.
We have invested money in the JF17 project and are harping about the huge market that the thunder will have . Yet you expect s to lose interest in JF17 when FC20 arrives. The answer is a hefty NO!! You just cannot afford to lose interest in JF17. I have mentioned this before that one of my friend is an Ex RAF pilot. He says inspite of having the typhoon, the only fighter that they are afraid of to cause them a problem is the Gripen.Goes to show the advantage of having a small well linked up plane in a net centric environment. I think PAF will continue to develop the Thunder and make it high 4th Generation fighter, if funds allow it. If funds do not allow it ____ then we wont have funds for FC20 either.
WaSalam
Araz

well thats good and that how it should be!
actually about an year or so back, there was such a rumor!
infact one of my friends, an aeronautical engg. with PAF also pointed out at this issue but it seems that all that was some misconception!

I think PAF will continue to develop the Thunder and make it high 4th Generation fighter, if funds allow it. If funds do not allow it ____ then we wont have funds for FC20 either.

for this part as it hadbeen disscussed in another thread on this site, the secret lies in export of the plane!
if we somehow manag to start the export of the plane with current specs even a small quantity, it may do wonders!
first of all it will be a big moral boost for the country as very few nation have developed and are in position to export fighter jets, being one of them is certainly a big pride!
secondly we may well use the funds generated from these exports to further upgrade and improve the plane to attarct more customers, if this process starts it will be great! it is just the same case as with F16, lockheed martine have always been ablt to export there current block F16 in enough amount to generate funds to develop a far improved and upgraded next block!

i hope this starts with the JF17 also!

the customers may not be a big issue, azerbijan is on the list selling them 25 to 30 planes can figure out money to develop the future planes to be sold to countries with higher specs requirment and the process may continue!
the only problem that comes to my mind is that the revenue generated, instead of being used in developing an upgraded second block, may well be transfered to swiss accounts

that is the set back of our nation! the politicians

 

[mean_bird]

From Pshamim at pakdef

Something new to ponder about. It is being said that China may develop the 3rd generation of J-10 with the ability to super cruise at 1.5 mach.

I wonder if it will have any effect on the FC-20 or will it be a totally new aircraft. Its configuration will be close to British Typhoon. Can the J-10 have this ability on a single power plant ot it will have two engines.

**************
I guess we will ultimately end up getting the J-11 everybody here have supported in the form of J-10 evolution and without the hassle.

 

[Arsalan]

From Pshamim at pakdef

Something new to ponder about. It is being said that China may develop the 3rd generation of J-10 with the ability to super cruise at 1.5 mach.

I wonder if it will have any effect on the FC-20 or will it be a totally new aircraft. Its configuration will be close to British Typhoon. Can the J-10 have this ability on a single power plant ot it will have two engines.

**************
I guess we will ultimately end up getting the J-11 everybody here have supported in the form of J-10 evolution and without the hassle.

well not me!!

actually i am not a fan of PAF getting the J11, the reason are quite obvious!

1: big budget requirment, (maintaniance nightmare so lesser flying hours)
2: cannot drop J10 to get J11, so it will be an extra expense and may not be an appropiate option considering the Su30 and MRCA are operational with our sweet neighbours and J11 will not stand in there way (obviously this is the reason we want to add a squadron or two of them)
3: china may not be intrested in selling a copy of russian plane rather then there very own J10, they might push us to get the FC20
4: last but not the least, what makes you think russains will ALLOW this deal?

regards!

 

[PAFAce]

i think the west and the americans are more worried about the J-10 than the JF-17. the chinese are more keen to invest in future upgrades of the J-10 as more a/c are inducted in the PLAAF!

Good observation. But I wonder, will the West really be worried by either of the aircraft cutting into its market share? I don't see any of the major customers leaving the Americans/Europeans for Chinese/Pakistani planes. UAE? Saudi Arabia? Greece? Turkey? I don't think so. At the most, the J-11B may have the ability to eat into the Su-27 market share, but that doesn't look too likely.

From Pshamim at pakdef

Something new to ponder about. It is being said that China may develop the 3rd generation of J-10 with the ability to super cruise at 1.5 mach.

I wonder if it will have any effect on the FC-20 or will it be a totally new aircraft. Its configuration will be close to British Typhoon. Can the J-10 have this ability on a single power plant ot it will have two engines.

**************
I guess we will ultimately end up getting the J-11 everybody here have supported in the form of J-10 evolution and without the hassle.

Very interesting stuff. Regardless of whether the tech will be included in the FC-20 or not, Pakistan will always have the option to buy the "third generation of the J-10" with supercruise, if and when it becomes a reality. Therefore, it is an exciting prospect.

Also, I've never been a supporter of the J-11B deal personally, mainly due to cost issues.