Mosque is not a religious place, can be demolished any time: BJP leader Subramanian Swamy

[haviZsultan]

Not Buddhist. That was much later. You have a point of debate with Jainism and their oldest tirthankaras, who have been dated not earlier than the earliest vedica literature. Hinduism and Jainism could arguably be compared to Zoroastrianism and Mithraism of ancient Persia. Not distinct from each other.



Only that Hinduism and Sanatan Dharma never gave way to another fiath. Or culture. It endured and prospered and grew. And alien faiths grew within its fold.

Which is why Indians will look at Pakistan as an aberration. Cause (1) it strove to leave the fold on lines that made little sense; and (2) it was merged with parts of Iranic civiliztional lands and populaces making it a true rump state cleaved and merged by breakaway territories and populaces of two ancient civilizations, artificially fused into one, by the common thread of an alien faith.

We are seeing the results of that today. Every day. Each and every day.



Sanatan Dharma has seen it all and absorbed all over 10,000 years. Islam and Christianity and Sikhism would be the latest schools of theology that take seed and grow and prosper on its soil.

Hindu soil.

So you are saying Hinduism has never been replaced by another faith? I am surprised by this belief of Hindu supremacy. In many parts Hinduism was replaced by Islam while in many Buddhism was replaced by Hinduism. There is nothing wrong with this as it has been done by all throughout history Caanitism was also replaced by Islam.

And you say Jainism and Hinduism are the same along with other religions? Good luck telling that to Sikhs and Jains and Buddhists

I do not agree that Hinduism is the oldest religion. There were other religions like Jainism and Budhism and particularly their nations ruled what is now India. Anatomic religion is older than Hinduism.

 

[doppelganger]

Okay so now we have opened up on our faiths then lets get into this debate.

Always a good thing. I don't think we are either of us close to be as learned as those od religious experts who participate in inter-faith debates, but we can try, in our own toota phoota way.

My friend to you it may not make any difference, but to me being Muslim, your remaining Hindu makes a very serious difference. The implication of you remaining Hindu and not believing in truth till we die as such is more severe than you or I can even imagine. So one of my duty and there upon accountability is not guiding you to truth and leaving you in delusion.

We won't go into further details.

My duty is to lead a good life. Do good. Be good. Take care of my parents. Marry and have kids and be a good husband and father. And when I grow old, try to pass back to society what I got during this lifetime, in teaching and experience. As a mentor and a guide.

My Gods are benevolent. They have not put any targets before me, I do not have to nor need to convince anyone but myself of the right path. And even for myself, my Gods leave me to walk the many possible paths to the final goal. Enlightenment. Moksha. There is no punishment in this world or the next should I fail I get another chance. And then another. And yet another ......

I appreciate your gesture, and I believe we have already discussed other part of your comment in detail, that same day and I don't want to create another drama out of it. So better you quit being childish and let us not refer indirectly to anybody in our comments.

Don't worry. She has me on ignore. I can call her Sunny Leone and she won't ever know.

Crux

The fulcrum, the pivot, of the entire argument.

I have hinted you what one of my responsibility being a Muslim is and what accountability I have to face. So by distancing myself or running away I won't be able to convey the message. Han distancing in terms of way of life, it is pretty much apparent man, we are not same. Cannot be. I asked you before count the resemblance between us from waking up and then going back to bed and tell me what makes you think we are same in each and every aspect? Being Muslim is not a culture, it is faith, blind belief, devotion, steadfastness,and path to salvation.

All superficial. Beneath your ADLs (activities of daily living) you blood remains the same. The soul from the same lineage, going through the same parikramas. Looks beyond the faith and the blind belief taught to you in this lifetime by your parents, elders, peers, and society around you. Learn to question. Learn to decide, to choose. That is the Hindu way. Devotion, steadfastness is important for every human. Your path to salvation is a work in progress.

Live good. Be good. Eventually salvation will be yours. And do not worry if you mess up. You're going to get another shot. And another ......

There is no one single Day of Judgment. The Gods are not going to be out of work after that. Its all a work in progress.

 

[doppelganger]

So you are saying Hinduism has never been replaced by another faith?

The predominant faith of the land remains Sanatan Dharma. The core Dharmic land remains untouched. Today Pakistan and Bangladesh stnd out as predominantly Islamic with close to 7 decades of weaning and cleansing that has taken place. Something which would never have been possible had India remained undivided and the natural distribution of people endured and evolved with time.

Undivided India numbered about 390 million at the time of Partition. 330 million in India, 30 million in West Pakistan and 30 million in then East Pakistan. Of the 330 million Independent Indians, 50 million were Muslims.

About 15 million undivided Indians were displaced in the Partition. 7.5 million moved to Pakistan (6:1.5 million split between West:East) and 7.5 million Hindus and Sikhs moved to India (again the split from West and East Pakistan remaining the same ratio).

The India population since then has grown 3.8 times, of which the Muslim population has grown 3.6 times (quite many having moved to Pakistan over time, and not included anymore under Indian Muslims). While the Pakistan population has grown 6.7 times and the Bangladesh population has grown about 5 times.

In 1947, of the 390 million, 110 million were Muslims. In 2015, out of the 1.58 billion, .51 billion are Muslims.

So yes, by ratio, Islam in the subcontinent has grown from 28% in 1947 to 32% today. But the bulk of that has come from a land and a people that had already shifted to following Islam. Organic growth mainly thereafter. No further "replacement" per se. Not from the land and the people that were still following the ancient parent faith, where from 15.2% the Muslims have in fact come down to 14.2% (this of course includes all who migrated to pakistan in the intervening years since Partition).

Compare the above to the rest of the world where Islam spread by conquest. And you shall have your answer who won in the clash between Sanatan Dharma and Islam on this Dharmic land.

1000 years. 30%. That's really the bottom line here to this debate about "replacement."

@Zarvan @syedali73 @Gufi

 

[I.R.A]

Always a good thing. I don't think we are either of us close to be as learned as those od religious experts who participate in inter-faith debates, but we can try, in our own toota phoota way.

(Ignore all spelling mistakes and grammatical errors its a lengthy post and I am not going to review it before posting it)

We are not discussing complex matter here, its simple as you will see in following argument.

My duty is to lead a good life. Do good. Be good. Take care of my parents. Marry and have kids and be a good husband and father. And when I grow old, try to pass back to society what I got during this lifetime, in teaching and experience. As a mentor and a guide.

You sound like a very good Muslim to me here.

My Gods are benevolent. They have not put any targets before me, I do not have to nor need to convince anyone but myself of the right path. And even for myself, my Gods leave me to walk the many possible paths to the final goal. Enlightenment. Moksha. There is no punishment in this world or the next should I fail I get another chance. And then another. And yet another ......

Now this is where real difference lies. First thing nobody gives me any targets. I said accountability and responsibility for conveying the message, I will be asked for why did not I convey the message and not for why did not I force you to convert, there is a difference. Its more of me responsible just by knowing you and not letting you know what Islam's message is because if you on that day answer "nobody told me" puts me in trouble. The choice to accept or refuse is always yours.

Now the problematic part or the difference. Well there cannot be another like Imran or doppelganger (never got to know your real name) or any other human being than How can there be more than one creator? The order in the universe you see is because its one single Authority that controls everything, otherwise it will be a chaos. Even when in very minute humanly detail a country cannot afford to have more than one PM or a company cannot afford to have more than one CEO to run the affairs then how can something as huge as universe(s) can be expected to be managed by more than one?

Punishment and reward is part of human program, it starts with our childhood no matter what our faith is. And with out fear of punishment or motivation of reward, humans will become monsters. It is not a belief it is a logical concept dear which is all around us in this life and it will be there to judge your actions in life hereafter.

Don't worry. She has me on ignore. I can call her Sunny Leone and she won't ever know.

I have not ignored anybody yet so don't know how it works

All superficial. Beneath your ADLs (activities of daily living) you blood remains the same. The soul from the same lineage, going through the same parikramas. Looks beyond the faith and the blind belief taught to you in this lifetime by your parents, elders, peers, and society around you. Learn to question. Learn to decide, to choose. That is the Hindu way. Devotion, steadfastness is important for every human. Your path to salvation is a work in progress.

Learn to question no, just question each and every thing in this universe and you will find its not Gods but one true God. You are a medicine student would you agree that God said in Quran (Meaning is)

"I create living from non living and non living from living" and there are many other verses which invite you to think and ponder on signs lying all around us. If you are under the impression that my faith is blind then know the reason, its blind because I don't find any contradiction in one single belief. If you can love a lady blindly than what is so wrong in me believing blindly in my creator to be one and only ALLAH?

Live good. Be good. Eventually salvation will be yours. And do not worry if you mess up. You're going to get another shot. And another ......

There is no one single Day of Judgment. The Gods are not going to be out of work after that. Its all a work in progress.

You won't get another shot of if you mess up big time on a busy road, or you mess up with any body part of yours, and you think people who loot, murder, rape, commit injustice, deny the message of ALL MIGHTY will be given another shot

And our God who created this universe in which our planet has a status of a tiny particle, needs us one of His tiny tiny little creations to assume that he will be out of work man that is hilarious you know sounds like coming out of a robot who you program and build, and once its operational it turns making assumptions about how you work.

 

[doppelganger]

The main difference I am seeing Imran :

1) One God, many Gods (though there is a hierrarchy, major Gods, minor Gods - all ancient pagan faiths have the same, including the Greeks and Romans and Vikings)

2) One life-one chance, many births-a continuous evolvement ladder

 

[Rahul9090]

Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bulldozing the birthplace of Mohammed: Developers set to demolish building next to site of the Prophet's home to make way for imam's residence | Daily Mail Online


Abandoned by God? Italian churches turned into banks, bars, shops (PHOTOS)


With the Italian economy crippled by recession, more and more churches are being deconsecrated and sold to private buyers, who repurpose these former houses of God into banks, theaters, night clubs and even car repair shops.

Several thousand churches have recently found new owners, indicating the hard times experienced by the Catholic Church and Italy’s general switch towards secularity.

“I loved all of them. I like places, which have irony in them. And that was the feeling I experienced in all of those churches,” says local photographer, Andrea Di Martino, who visited and took pictures of 70 former churches.

Madonna della Neve church in Como was among the first such churches he visited, inspiring the whole project.

It was deconsecrated in the late 1950s and turned into a successful car repair shop by the building’s new owners.

“When I left it, I realized that I want to learn what’s happened to the rest of those churches,” the photographer said.

Churches in Italy are deconsecrated when the condition of the building makes it dangerous, or when attendance drastically decreases.

They sell pretty well due to being solid structures, with high ceilings, usually located in the centers of towns and villages.

In the port town of Ugento, clerics had to clear the St. Philomena church so that court hearings could be held there.

Photo by Andrea Di Martino



The Santa Lucia church in Montescaglioso fell into the hands of sports fans, who decorated the walls with football posters and also installed a Ping-Pong table.

Photo by Andrea Di Martino



A church in Salerno, dating back to 1,000 AD, has been turned into a museum of the local medical school.

Photo by Andrea Di Martino



The former Santa Sabina church, which was completed in 1036, has served as a bank for the last four decades.

Photo by Andrea Di Martino



A multimedia library found its home at Milan’s former church of Santa Teresa, which was built in 1694.

Photo by Andrea Di Martino



A former house of God in Viareggio, which was deconsecrated in 1977, became a pizza place, named ‘La Chiesina’ (the church).

Photo by Andrea Di Martino



Repurposing defunct church buildings is a practice common not only in Italy, but in other Western European nations as well. In 2008, Dutch bookstore chain, Selexyz, turned a 1294 church in Maastricht into one of the most famous book shops in the Netherlands.



Abandoned by God? Italian churches turned into banks, bars, shops (PHOTOS) — RT News

 

[I.R.A]

The main difference I am seeing Imran :

1) One God, many Gods (though there is a hierrarchy, major Gods, minor Gods - all ancient pagan faiths have the same, including the Greeks and Romans and Vikings)

2) One life-one chance, many births-a continuous evolvement ladder

What you have said are some of primary differences. It is start of differences and as you will drill down you will find as minute as difference in way of our eating the food.

 

[Gibbs]

The thing is Dr. Swarmy usually say things thats not politically correct and ruffle a lot of feathers of lot of people but those at most times are not just foot in the mouth utterances like other politicians.. 99% of the time he has reasons to back then up, Which most people dont.. More or less records show it's those who challenge him leave with eggs on their face

I am an avid follower of his political career.. A man that rides against the tide of convention against a lot odds and some how survives near the top

 

[My-Analogous]

BJP leader Subramanian Swamy said in Guwahati that mosque is not a religious place but is just a building that can be demolished any time, in remarks that triggered protests in the state and led to slapping of a criminal case against him.

Swamy cited the “example” of mosques demolished for construction of roads in Saudi Arabia. “A mosque is not a religious place. It is just a building. It can be demolished any time. If anyone disagrees with me on this, I am ready to have a debate on the issue. I got this information from people of Saudi Arabia,” he said at a religious event on Friday night. The BJP leader then went on to claim that all Indian Muslims were Hindus.

He repeated the controversial comments at another function in Guwahati on Saturday.

Protesting Swamy’s comments, a number of organisations in the state on Saturday burnt the effigies of the BJP national executive member. The police also registered an FIR under IPC sections 120 (B) [criminal conspiracy] and 153 (A) [promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion] against Swamy following a complaint by Krishak Mukti Sangram Samiti (KMSS).

“Ahead of Assembly elections, the BJP is trying to create communal disturbance in the state. The controversial statement made by Swamy against Muslims is part of this conspiracy. We condemn it and demand Assam government to ban the entry of Subramanian Swamy into the state,” said Akhil Gogoi, KMSS president.

Chief minister Tarun Gogoi also slammed Swamy and his party, saying “BJP will have to pay a heavy price for hurting Assamese sentiments”.

Sensing people’s anger, the state BJP tried to distance itself from the remarks. “These are Swamy’s personal statements, not of our party’s. But we will write to our central leadership over this issue,” said Assam BJP president Siddhartha Bhattacharyya.

Assam Wakf Board, All Assam Minority Students Union and other Muslim organizations have sought action against Swamy.

Mosque is not a religious place, can be demolished any time: BJP leader Subramanian Swamy

https://twitter.com/x/status/576733097460269056

https://twitter.com/x/status/576733707693740032

Ok then demolished the Mosque and when Muslim want to pray in one place they will visit your house for that. Simple and both will be happy. You by demolishing Mosque and Muslim by praying at your home. Win win situation.

 

[TankMan]

@TankMan to understand what Hinduism is, please refer to the landmark watershed judgment on the same by the Supreme Court of India in the tumultous 90s.

The RSS, the BJP, and most Hindus I know identify with the same. I'm sure Sarthak does as well.

Coming to your point about our Muslims. Yes they can call themselves Muslims. Does not stop us from calling them Hindus now does it? It is an inclusive cultural civilizational heritage we include them as equals within. A heritage that belongs to both of us equally. A heritage we are both part of equally. Why should you or anyone for that matter have an issue with it?

I'm asking you academically of course, because as a Pakistani Muslim you should not have an issue either ways .... as its an issue which concerns us and our Muslims. Indians both. Hindus both.

I don't have any issue with it - if you consider Hinduism to be something beyond religious beliefs and as a culture or heritage instead, no issue at all.

My only objection was that since most Muslims would not consider themselves Hindu, and prefer being identified as Muslims, would Indian Muslims be fine with being called Hindu? And even then, how would you distinguish between ''Hindu Muslim'' and ''Hindu Hindu''?

And does this also apply to other faiths like Sikhism and Christianity - do you consider them to be Hindu too? If you do, fine with me as long as they too are fine with it.

 

[doppelganger]

My only objection was that since most Muslims would not consider themselves Hindu, and prefer being identified as Muslims, would Indian Muslims be fine with being called Hindu?

Most will not. Because they have been conditioned to see themselves as different. That will eventually change.

And even then, how would you distinguish between ''Hindu Muslim'' and ''Hindu Hindu''?

Simple. One follows Sanatan Dharma. The other follows Islam.

And does this also apply to other faiths like Sikhism and Christianity - do you consider them to be Hindu too? If you do, fine with me as long as they too are fine with it.

Of course it does. Of course we do. Same reticence, similar or different quarters, differing historical precedents. Does not change the basic fact that we are all Hindu on this land. Hindus some of whom worship differently now.

 

[vegav]

My personal Belief (You may not agree with me)

The only case where a mosque was demolished during life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is that of a "Masjid e Zarar", reason to demolish it, was that it was built with intention to gather support to harm and plan anarchy within Muslims.

Zionists have a long outstanding dream of "Demolishing Mosque Al Aqsa" to rebuild their "Temple of Solomon". I won't bore you with importance of happening of this event and its link with future events to unfold in light of Islamic Prophecies (you can always research it yourself or you may already know). The importance of this Swami's statement for me is that it will set a precedent to demolish Mosques without any reason by Non Muslims and that will remove "Importance and sense of belonging Muslims associate with a mosque". In nutshell it is very easy to demolish any mosque when Muslims start considering it to be normal and nothing unusual. I hope you get my point.

Jama Masjid was not built upon a temple but the masjid in Varanasi is.

So you are saying Hinduism has never been replaced by another faith? I am surprised by this belief of Hindu supremacy. In many parts Hinduism was replaced by Islam while in many Buddhism was replaced by Hinduism. There is nothing wrong with this as it has been done by all throughout history Caanitism was also replaced by Islam.

And you say Jainism and Hinduism are the same along with other religions? Good luck telling that to Sikhs and Jains and Buddhists

I do not agree that Hinduism is the oldest religion. There were other religions like Jainism and Budhism and particularly their nations ruled what is now India. Anatomic religion is older than Hinduism.

Nothing has replaced hinduism in India,Buddhism/Jainism are branches of the Tree called hinduism and also is Sikhism,thats why Sikhs were driven out of West Punjab.

Buddha/Mahavira/Baba Nanak all came from Hindu families,themselves.

The thing is Dr. Swarmy usually say things thats not politically correct and ruffle a lot of feathers of lot of people but those at most times are not just foot in the mouth utterances like other politicians.. 99% of the time he has reasons to back then up, Which most people dont.. More or less records show it's those who challenge him leave with eggs on their face

I am an avid follower of his political career.. A man that rides against the tide of convention against a lot odds and some how survives near the top

true that.

 

[vegav]

Supreme Court of India judgment .....

Bharatiya Janata Party

P.S. Imran, fact of the matter is that till the Indus, leaving the Pashtuns and the Baloch who are of Persian lineage, the rest of the entire subcontinent, inclusive of Pakistani Punjab and Sindh, whole of India, Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Tibet, Myanmar and Sri Lanka, is of Dharmic lineage, regardless of what religion or faith they follow today.

Which is what we mean when we call all of us Hindu.

Please do not take it as a direct affront to your present faith.

Not sindh and west coastal muslims,they all are descendants of arabs.

Well India was Buddhist and Jain before it was Hindu. So can we call all Hindus Jain or Buddhist-all 1.5 billion of them?

This is the story of the world. One religion has fallen and been replaced by another. Look at pagan (Norse) Europe, look at Zoroastrinism/Parsi faith in Iran. Look at Aztec religion in America. It does not mean they are Aztec pagans. This argument is a null argument used by Hindutva fanatics.

We all have our different religions and extra religions means more tolerance and more respect for each other.

No both buddha/mahavira were kshatriya princemen.

we dont have to look at Iran/America/Europe.

Look at Israel,Christianity replaced Judaism and Islam replaced Christianity and now Judaism has replaced Islam again.

Submarine Swamy !

@levina now his name was definitely given by some relatives of his who has to be an engineer !

on topic : Subramanian swamy & his Hate speeches are wrong & the civil society should condemn it
he constantly promotes communal disharmony

bhai,

please try to develop the capability to learn.

 

[doppelganger]

Not sindh and west coastal muslims,they all are descendants of arabs.

You are referring to the Bohra tribe that is from Yemen I guess?

I realise that when invading armies come, they do not bring women with them. So their seed does mix with the local women.

But what is the percentage? How big were those armies? How big was India, even then? Like a drop in the ocean (pardon the pretty graphic pun).

Fact of the matter is that most subcontinental Muslims, barring the Pashtun and Baloch who are traditionally from Iranic stock, are of Indic blood.

Yes, if you do a genome map, some traces of Turkic blood or Iranic blood or even Mongol blood or maybe even Greek or Scythian blood would be there. But to stretch that link to that one long ago non-Indic male ancestor and say you are not of Indian blood is pretty ludicrous.

 

[TankMan]

Most will not. Because they have been conditioned to see themselves as different. That will eventually change.

So you want to change their perception forcefully? What's wrong with seeing themselves as different? They actually are different in terms of their religious beliefs.

Simple. One follows Sanatan Dharma. The other follows Islam.

So ''Hindu who follows Islam'' and ''Hindu who follows Sanatan Dharma'' is going to be written on ID cards now?
Why not just use ''Hindu'' and ''Muslim'' instead?

All this is pointless. ''Indian'' should be enough if you want national unity or cultural pride or whatever - but it's none of my concern.