Why so many Kiran trainers have crashed

[drumstick]

Should the IAF disband and hand over its duties to PAF


Totally guys... when you want IAF? come and take it... its all yours

 

[ziaulislam]

In past 9 years (only 4 Kiran trainers crashed).
Most crashes were in 80s and 90s.
BTW out 198 Mirages inducted by PAF, 70-75 have crashed.
@siegecrossbow

Wrong
Pakistan had up of 300 mirages operated for MORE THAN 50 years

Still better record then mig21

Trainers are suppose to be SUPER SAFE

Something is wrong

 

[Khan vilatey]

Data till Jun 2014 is available here

Chronological Listing of Pakista

Data post Jun 2014 here:

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > Geographical regions index > ASN Aviation Safety Database results

Aviation Safety Network: Aviation Safety Network: Databases containing descriptions of over 11000 airliner write-offs, hijackings and military aircraft accidents.

aviation-safety.net

No.
85 Kirans still in service.
Drastic reduction in IAF crashes in past 10 yearz

okay so I looked at your list half of the list is blank that I tried but can not be corroborated. There even Libiyan aircraft. The remaining is about 30-40jet fighter aircraft in 40 years so we are good. Nothing as bad as 80 basic trainers

even in the last few years if you look closely the crashes have reduced as more crashes are seen on the hawk trainer

let’s also compare HPT-32 Deepak same problems lot of crashe, even the auditor general of India said that the plane and the pilots who fly these are against flying

in contrast the super Mushak Mf-17 has had significant commercial success over 500 aircraft operated by 7-9 air forces . Significantly lower pilot losses!

The reason for all this is Indian pilots, the extremely low maintenance and fitness standards of IAF.

this was best explained by abhijit Iyer Mitra

So I say again, it’s time to start a defense contract with Pakistan and China to fly and protect Indian air space against the western invaders.

See of the 500 j-10s only 1-2 have crashed same is true for the 10+ years of jf-17 flying 2-3 aircraft have crashed.
k

 

[Fus Ro Dah]

Wrong
Pakistan had up of 300 mirages operated for MORE THAN 50 years

Still better record then mig21

Trainers are suppose to be SUPER SAFE

Something is wrong

Wrong. Kaiser Tufail has given this list it is around 200.

The Mirage III/5/50 Family

Mirage 5 PA3 with AM-39 Exocet anti-ship missile “Like a desert vision, so that enemy pilots should see it but never catch up with it....

kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com

Nothing is wrong as proven by the fact that IAF has 80+ Kirans in service yet only 4 crashes in Feb 2012 to Feb 2021 (9 years)

okay so I looked at your list half of the list is blank that I tried but can not be corroborated. There even Libiyan aircraft. The remaining is about 30-40jet fighter aircraft in 40 years so we are good. Nothing as bad as 80 basic trainers

Look again. Only one aircraft is Libyan rest are all Pakistani (count exceeds 65).
Plus another 8-9 crashes after June 2014. So 73+ crashes.

See of the 500 j-10s only 1-2 have crashed same is true for the 10+ years of jf-17 flying 2-3 aircraft have crashed.
k

Wrong. Atlrast 13 J-10 crashed. Real nunbe ris higher as China does not report many crashes:

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > ASN Aviation Safety Database results

Aviation Safety Network: Aviation Safety Network: Databases containing descriptions of over 11000 airliner write-offs, hijackings and military aircraft accidents.

aviation-safety.net

 

[Mrc]

Meanwhile in Pakistan

 

[ziaulislam]

Wrong. Kaiser Tufail has given this list it is around 200.

The Mirage III/5/50 Family

Mirage 5 PA3 with AM-39 Exocet anti-ship missile “Like a desert vision, so that enemy pilots should see it but never catch up with it....

kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com

Nothing is wrong as proven by the fact that IAF has 80+ Kirans in service yet only 4 crashes in Feb 2012 to Feb 2021 (9 years)

Look again. Only one aircraft is Libyan rest are all Pakistani (count exceeds 65).
Plus another 8-9 crashes after June 2014. So 73+ crashes.

Wrong. Atlrast 13 J-10 crashed. Real nunbe ris higher as China does not report many crashes:

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > ASN Aviation Safety Database results

Aviation Safety Network: Aviation Safety Network: Databases containing descriptions of over 11000 airliner write-offs, hijackings and military aircraft accidents.

aviation-safety.net

Sir understand active vs ever aircarts dont act as dumb
We have retired several 100s jets
Active jets NOW are 200

If we count every mirage we have touched the number is somewhere between 300-400
There are over 1000 J10s with 500+ j10bs

We have to go by the declare crashes.this isnt bharat raksha that we assume things

By this logic i can say india had 600mig21 crashes instead of 190

Afterall india claims that they killed 300 people by bombing empty land lots as per high definition satellite images

 

[Invicta]

IAF is known to suffer from logistical problems, they have their serviceability greatly reduced due to these issues, they mainly stem from having a vast number of platforms in combat roles, which reduces their effectiveness, Migs and SUs are known to be very maintenance intensive, then take into the Jaguars the Mirages and now the Rafaels you are talking a very complicated supply chain that is not helped by the size of the country and the large area it occupies.

Compare this to PAF you have F16, JF17 the remaining F7's and the Mirage variants, the good thing about the Mirages is that they are similar and share commonality with each other, JF17 is a home grown fighter and F16 need less maintenance when compared to Migs and SUs. This coupled with the fact that PAF's airpower is concentrated in a small area when you take into account Pakistan's airspace you have a lot of inherent flexibility.

I am in no doubt that the low standard of maintenance plays a part for IAF's track record but there is a reason for that, take USAF they have two platforms F16 and F15 which are now being replaced by two main platforms F22 and F35. The psyche of volunteers is different as well for both IAF and PAF. Armed forces attract crème de la crème of candidates in Pakistan this doesn't seem to be the case for India - I have had the pleasure of meeting a few IAF pilots they are not very charismatic or (for lack of a better word) impressionable - just my observations when I compare them to the normal RAF or PAF or USAF guys.

 

[Fus Ro Dah]

Sir understand active vs ever aircarts dont act as dumb
We have retired several 100s jets
Active jets NOW are 200

If we count every mirage we have touched the number is somewhere between 300-400
There are over 1000 J10s with 500+ j10bs

We have to go by the declare crashes.this isnt bharat raksha that we assume things

By this logic i can say india had 600mig21 crashes instead of 190

Afterall india claims that they killed 300 people by bombing empty land lots as per high definition satellite images

Wrong.
This list is about total number of Mirages there were ever acquired by a country incl. 2nd hand ones:

PAF has 6 Mirage sqns plus one CCs unit with half a dozen birds so total number in active service is 110-112.

IAF is known to suffer from logistical problems, they have their serviceability greatly reduced due to these issues, they mainly stem from having a vast number of platforms in combat roles, which reduces their effectiveness, Migs and SUs are known to be very maintenance intensive, then take into the Jaguars the Mirages and now the Rafaels you are talking a very complicated supply chain that is not helped by the size of the country and the large area it occupies.

Compare this to PAF you have F16, JF17 the remaining F7's and the Mirage variants, the good thing about the Mirages is that they are similar and share commonality with each other, JF17 is a home grown fighter and F16 need less maintenance when compared to Migs and SUs. This coupled with the fact that PAF's airpower is concentrated in a small area when you take into account Pakistan's airspace you have a lot of inherent flexibility.

I am in no doubt that the low standard of maintenance plays a part for IAF's track record but there is a reason for that, take USAF they have two platforms F16 and F15 which are now being replaced by two main platforms F22 and F35. The psyche of volunteers is different as well for both IAF and PAF. Armed forces attract crème de la crème of candidates in Pakistan this doesn't seem to be the case for India - I have had the pleasure of meeting a few IAF pilots they are not very charismatic or (for lack of a better word) impressionable - just my observations when I compare them to the normal RAF or PAF or USAF guys.

Nice try.

Let's see data from Scramble Aviation society and Aviation Safety Network:

Since January 2012 Number of PAF fighter losses: 30

Since January 2012 Number of IAF fighter losses: 46

Ratio: 1:1.51

Now taking into account the fact that IAF inventory is nearly two times larger than PAF, IAF crash rate is relatively lower.

More importantly 20 PAF pilots died in this crashes in comparison only 8 IAF pilots died.
Which proves IAF is much safer.

 

[ziaulislam]

Pakistan acquired 50 mirages from libya and 50 from austrilia, 12 from lebanan


So obviously this list is wrong or shows as I TOLD before the current active list is different from what we operated

(so did 190 mig21 crashed out of 120mig21)

I am not discusing crash rates
That is separate topic and discussed to death before

PAF did much better on 4th gen fighter crash rate and similar in 2/3rd gen crash rates

 

[Khan vilatey]

Wrong.
This list is about total number of Mirages there were ever acquired by a country incl. 2nd hand ones:

PAF has 6 Mirage sqns plus one CCs unit with half a dozen birds so total number in active service is 110-112.

Nice try.

Let's see data from Scramble Aviation society and Aviation Safety Network:

Since January 2012 Number of PAF fighter losses: 30

Since January 2012 Number of IAF fighter losses: 46

Ratio: 1:1.51

Now taking into account the fact that IAF inventory is nearly two times larger than PAF, IAF crash rate is relatively lower.

More importantly 20 PAF pilots died in this crashes in comparison only 8 IAF pilots died.
Which proves IAF is much safer.

Please quote the societies, as I cant find these

p.s. I checked aviation Saftey network and did nit find military losses ...... so seems your numbers are completely off ......
regards
wajeeh

 

[ziaulislam]

Please quote the societies, as I cant find these

p.s. I checked aviation Saftey network and did nit find military losses ...... so seems your numbers are completely off ......
regards
wajeeh

Numbers are coming from God knows where

Also per his logic IAF lost 191 aircarfts out of 120 aircarts i.e 190% of the aircrafts

Wrong.
This list is about total number of Mirages there were ever acquired by a country incl. 2nd hand ones:

PAF has 6 Mirage sqns plus one CCs unit with half a dozen birds so total number in active service is 110-112.

Nice try.

Let's see data from Scramble Aviation society and Aviation Safety Network:

Since January 2012 Number of PAF fighter losses: 30

Since January 2012 Number of IAF fighter losses: 46

Ratio: 1:1.51

Now taking into account the fact that IAF inventory is nearly two times larger than PAF, IAF crash rate is relatively lower.

More importantly 20 PAF pilots died in this crashes in comparison only 8 IAF pilots died.
Which proves IAF is much safer.

 

[VkdIndian]

Let's see data from Scramble Aviation society and Aviation Safety Network:

Since January 2012 Number of PAF fighter losses: 30

Since January 2012 Number of IAF fighter losses: 46

Ratio: 1:1.51

Now taking into account the fact that IAF inventory is nearly two times larger than PAF, IAF crash rate is relatively lower.

Your analysis sounds quite logical. Though not liked by some quarters on PDF.

It should be rate in terms of size of the Air Force. I am sure there must be some rate based on the utilisation of the assets. It should be based on the rate of accidents vs the flying hours.

Kiran aircraft are being used to train pilots by the IAF. Considering larger number of pilots being trained by India the rate of utilisation of Kiran must be much more than that of the Pakistani trainer aircraft. Even then the rate appears lower than that of our friend’s trainer.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Your analysis sounds quite logical. Though not liked by some quarters on PDF.

It should be rate in terms of size of the Air Force. I am sure there must be some rate based on the utilisation of the assets. It should be based on the rate of accidents vs the flying hours.

Kiran aircraft are being used to train pilots by the IAF. Considering larger number of pilots being trained by India the rate of utilisation of Kiran must be much more than that of the Pakistani trainer aircraft. Even then the rate appears lower than that of our friend’s trainer.

no dude the same is true for the basic trainer used by IAF. The inspector general said that the aircraft was a death trap.

the crash rate numbers are based on hog wash.... the base data on PAF mirage crashes was unsubstantiated I checked most of the blanks had no background, there was at least 2-4 instances of double counting ........ so the number of crashes of 1-4 mirage crashes a year was unrealistic. Today the average crash rate of PAF is 1.5 aircraft a year. This includes all types including trainers, transport , elint , sar helicopters......all this while PAF on average flys almost the double the number of hours / pilot when compared to IAF.

k

 

[Rangila]

And MIG-21 numbers?

 

[jk007]

Armed forces attract crème de la crème of candidates in Pakistan this doesn't seem to be the case for India - I have had the pleasure of meeting a few IAF pilots they are not very charismatic or (for lack of a better word) impressionable - just my observations when I compare them to the normal RAF or PAF or USAF guys.

Off-topic post:
I used to go to a coffee shop in bangalore (that is in upscale area), and these trainee IAF pilots used to come over there, and each of them would have most beautiful girl with them. Mind you - these are some of the most beautiful girls that one can ever see [even deepika padukone would be a dampener before those girls].....

I always used to think where do these pilots find these beautiful girls from, and how do they make them come to coffee shop with them (mean - how do they manage make the girls fall for them).....

Guys - take this in lighter vein. I am not expecting others to prove that Pakistani pilots go out with more beautiful girls....